CLutch life/Expectations, LS3,LSA SC and a Cam.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

I have the Billet support and the Remote bleeder in my parts bin, My Slave is low mileage with no abuse, But will change it if needed. I was going to reach out to Monster and ask them if it was crank or Wheel but you seem to have answered that for me. When replacing the slave is it typically a GM unit that is used?

Yes - most commonly a GM slave is the go-to option for factory fitment. There are aftermarket options. I run a Tilton 6000 series slave, and it's been flawless for 20k + miles. It has an adjustable body, so the air-gap can be precisely set as desired. I believe McLeod also has their own slave offering, and maybe one other manufacturer that I don't recall off-hand.

I know that Monster uses the GM slaves exclusively, and I believe even their pressure plates are derived from GM units.

[TheBrightSide]

Originally Posted by acammer

Keep in mind that unless explicitly listed as "whp" power ratings are almost always implied as crank horsepower. 800hp at the crank is about 670hp at the wheels. You may have already considered that, but if you're in the buy once, cry once school of thought, then I think the Monster Triple is the move.

Regarding the slave - you don't have to replace it, but you really, really should. Many a stock clutch has been blamed for problems that are actually issues with the slave. Until about a year ago the GM slave included a plastic throw out bearing support. Plastic and heat never get along, and when used hard that part would melt, run the bearing out of square, destroy it, and allow the slave to over-travel destroying it as well. Real stupid setup. The billet aluminum support solves for that.

In the last year or so GM superseded the part number 19210297 with 19421324. This new part number has a revised, metal throw out bearing support. Both parts are still out there - if you get an older one, make sure you get a billet support for it. If you get a new one, you shouldn't need it (and it is not compatible with the upgraded part).

This is what I was asking for in my posts, months ago, when I was removing my trans and replacing parts lol. Had I known, I probably would've gotten this, instead of buying a separate billet release bearing support.

I sure hope some vendors and whatnot, aren't selling the older part to unsuspecting folks... I haven't seen anyone post up close photos of the revised part, but stock images and older images or aftermarket ones, all still use the "composite" material release bearing support.

[TheBrightSide]

Originally Posted by acammer

Yes - most commonly a GM slave is the go-to option for factory fitment. There are aftermarket options. I run a Tilton 6000 series slave, and it's been flawless for 20k + miles. It has an adjustable body, so the air-gap can be precisely set as desired. I believe McLeod also has their own slave offering, and maybe one other manufacturer that I don't recall off-hand.

I know that Monster uses the GM slaves exclusively, and I believe even their pressure plates are derived from GM units.

Don't Ram Clutches and some other companies make a hydraulic concentric clutch slave cylinder for the 5th gen Chevy Camaro? I've heard and looked at online reviews, where they were apparently a hit and miss.

Other than that, the only other thing I've ran as of lately, was an old modified Ideal Garage OEM GM CSC that was from some old backstock. I never bothered to take it apart, but some people claim that it's modified, with actual custom parts; which I haven't ever confirmed myself.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by TheBrightSide

This is what I was asking for in my posts, months ago, when I was removing my trans and replacing parts lol. Had I known, I probably would've gotten this, instead of buying a separate billet release bearing support.

I sure hope some vendors and whatnot, aren't selling the older part to unsuspecting folks... I haven't seen anyone post up close photos of the revised part, but stock images and older images or aftermarket ones, all still use the "composite" material release bearing support.

I would be a lot of vendors don't even know there is a difference. GM changes part numbers all the time, and it usually doesn't mean anything different for the end user, so no reason to suspect anything different with the slave when they changed the number.

We don't offer a service to install the billet support we offer, so we never had a cause to pull one apart and notice - I learned through a customer that had bought a GM slave and billet support from us and then couldn't do the install because the design had changed. We of course promptly got his issues squared away, and we made some updates to our product page, removing the billet support option since it is no longer required on the newer style slaves.

I've still yet to get photos. We can almost never keep those things in stock, but I have a request in to our team to get some pictures if we get a chance. If I get 'em, I'll share 'em.

[Ktucky1LE]

Originally Posted by FASTFATBOY

Suck it up and buy a Monster twin, drives like stock. Yes put a slave in it with a remote bleeder.


Having a pissy chattering clutch will make you hate the car.

I have 3K miles on Monster S twin and absolutely love it. I also went with 20 lb steel billet flywheel. I behaved during entire break in period and have zero issues with chatter. I can't speak to "stock feel" because when I bought car used, it already had an aftermarket twin, but chattered and stalled like crazy. The new Monster is awesome. Slight rattle when idling engaged, but doesn't bother me. I also did new slave cylinder, billet release, speed bleed. Also replaced rear main seal and rear engine cover while there.

My LS3 is stock right now except for CAI. I plan to add headers and cam eventually.

[Joe.G]

Ktucky1LE was the Billet Flywheel though Monster? Did they offer different weights or just steel and aluminum?
Thanks

[Ktucky1LE]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

Ktucky1LE was the Billet Flywheel though Monster? Did they offer different weights or just steel and aluminum?
Thanks

Yes, the 20 lb flywheel was from Monster. I believe it is ~$100 cost add. The "standard" flywheel from Monster for this clutch is steel 24 lb. I do not recall if there was an even lighter aluminum option.

One interesting caveat to my story that I just found out over the weekend... I still have the old aftermarket clutch that was removed. The seller had told me it was aluminum flywheel. I finally got around to pulling it out of box and looked at it more closely... definitely NOT aluminum... is steel and weighed 20.6 lb. The total clutch assembly overall, including housing, plates, etc. was 37.6 lb.

My point in bringing this up is because I thought the old clutch was chattering/stalling purely due to supposed aluminum flywheel (only 16 or 18 lb?). But after finding it was steel and 20 lb, I now wonder if the chatter/stalling was simply due to poor break-in. Could also be due to puck design of pads? The new Monster S Twin clutch with 20 lb flywheel is smooth as silk, gets slightly quicker rev response over stock clutch/flywheel and has plenty of headroom for mods.

Last thing I will ponder, the clutch I took out DID seem to rev quicker, so I wonder if the overall clutch assembly weight of 37.6 lb is lighter than the new Monster?

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Ktucky1LE

Yes, the 20 lb flywheel was from Monster. I believe it is ~$100 cost add. The "standard" flywheel from Monster for this clutch is steel 24 lb. I do not recall if there was an even lighter aluminum option.

One interesting caveat to my story that I just found out over the weekend... I still have the old aftermarket clutch that was removed. The seller had told me it was aluminum flywheel. I finally got around to pulling it out of box and looked at it more closely... definitely NOT aluminum... is steel and weighed 20.6 lb. The total clutch assembly overall, including housing, plates, etc. was 37.6 lb.

My point in bringing this up is because I thought the old clutch was chattering/stalling purely due to supposed aluminum flywheel (only 16 or 18 lb?). But after finding it was steel and 20 lb, I now wonder if the chatter/stalling was simply due to poor break-in. Could also be due to puck design of pads? The new Monster S Twin clutch with 20 lb flywheel is smooth as silk, gets slightly quicker rev response over stock clutch/flywheel and has plenty of headroom for mods.

Last thing I will ponder, the clutch I took out DID seem to rev quicker, so I wonder if the overall clutch assembly weight of 37.6 lb is lighter than the new Monster?

FWIW chatter/shudder on take-off is much more related to the friction surfaces than it is the flywheel weight. Puck style clutches with aggressive materials will be much more likely to chatter/shudder than anything full faced.

[Ktucky1LE]

Originally Posted by acammer

FWIW chatter/shudder on take-off is much more related to the friction surfaces than it is the flywheel weight. Puck style clutches with aggressive materials will be much more likely to chatter/shudder than anything full faced.

Thank you for that clarification, I definitely wasn't sure!

[Joe.G]

Is there anything wrong with using stock flywheel? Is there an issue with different clutch material? My other Camaro I run a Centerforce with a Ram flywheel and it has been a great combo in that car many years without issue. 3rd Gen Z/28 Completely rebuilt from ground up.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

Is there anything wrong with using stock flywheel? Is there an issue with different clutch material? My other Camaro I run a Centerforce with a Ram flywheel and it has been a great combo in that car many years without issue. 3rd Gen Z/28 Completely rebuilt from ground up.

It just depends on the clutch. There are ones out there deigned for use with factory, and there are ones out there designed for use with their own proprietary design. If you have a good condition factory flywheel and a clutch designed for use with it, then I don't see a problem with it. But, consider if the flywheel may have wear and thermal damage, and then consider the cost for having it trued before returning it to service, and you may conclude that you're better off with a new piece. Especially if it's a bit ligther.

I'm a big proponent of steel flywheels in anything short of a road course car or REALLY dedicated stick shift race car because of their driveability and ease of launch advantages - but the aftermarket billet steel flywheels still tend to be ligther than stock and give a bit of an advantage over the factory piece without getting into that ultra light, ultra sensitive range.

[Joe.G]

Yeah I am not looking for a very light weight version, I have driven aluminum ones on the street and track and I am not a fan for street use. I have not looked at my flywheel but I would be very surprised if there is any abnormal wear or abuse.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

Yeah I am not looking for a very light weight version, I have driven aluminum ones on the street and track and I am not a fan for street use. I have not looked at my flywheel but I would be very surprised if there is any abnormal wear or abuse.

Last time I pulled a stock clutch off it looked like this. This was run HARD for all it would take at the drag strip, and it was still working just fine. After my second OEM slave (with billet support) failed I wasn't taking the trans out again without putting a stronger clutch back in!

EDIT - not idea why it's rotated the picture, it doesn't show that way ANYWHERE else I view it.

[Ktucky1LE]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

Yeah I am not looking for a very light weight version, I have driven aluminum ones on the street and track and I am not a fan for street use. I have not looked at my flywheel but I would be very surprised if there is any abnormal wear or abuse.

I had some fun reaching out to Monster (Steve) and ChatGPT. Steve shared the following total clutch assembly weights:
STOCK Camaro SS clutch w/ 24 lb flywheel = 56.75 LB
Monster S Twin w/ 24 lb steel flywheel = 53.7 LB
Monster S Twin w/ 20 lb billet steel flywheel = 49.4 LB

Crunching numbers into ChatGPT and attempting to take into account single disc vs. twin disc clutch diameter differences (take with a grain of salt... not perfectly accurate)... the rotational inertia differences are quite large between stock and Monster w/ 20 lb flywheel. Impact on performance can be seen "on paper" to match what is "felt" when driving.

From ChatGPT (for fun, not perfectly accurate)...

COMPARED TO STOCK 56.75 LB CLUTCH...
Added rear wheel thrust: ~40 lb
Rotational inertia: 37% less
RPM response: 59% faster
Shift recovery thrust: 975 lb higher, brief instant after shift
0–60 mph: ~unchanged
0–100 mph: 0.10–0.15 s faster
Typical 2-minute road-course lap: 0.7–1.0 s faster