The possibility of '09 Camaro available with Flex Fuel

[TAG UR IT]

Ok...I filled up the tank and did my math. In my 4th Gen, I averaged 17.3 mpg's city. Yes...I get on it quite a bit more than an average driver. I'd see what could happen if I laid off a little, but I don't think I manage to get through a week and a half w/out stepping on it.

As for the 5th Gen...We've been told GM wants the Camaro to be able to achieve 30+mpg's. Will this be possible? IMO, w/out a doubt. I have no worries that the Camaro won't get the good miles to the gallon.

[MerF]

I agree, with the active cylinder de-activation technology this should be very achievable. I'm on the fence on flex-fuel though. I'm ignorant to what the capabilities of an engine that runs on it is, so I can't really give an opinion.

[The_Stache]

I believe (and may be wrong I need to do more research on this) that the only difference between a non flex fuel vehicle and a flex fuel one is the tune/pc, a sensor or 2 to detect octane, and all fuel piping/fittings have to be metal as opposed to plastic as e85 will actually degrade the plastics.

Again this might be false as I have not had a chance to do research on it but this was the impression I have been given on several conversations.

[daddyseth1]

Well, I would probably go for the cylinder deactivation before the flex-fuel option myself. However, Im in Chicago and the e85 fuel is of course almost
.60 cheaper the standard 87octance. Moreso, with Roush offering the tuners for the Camaro, it probably would not make sense to look for a Camaro with flex-fuel capability. I would like to further research how the "FF" option plays on HP myself.

[The_Stache]

The answer to that daddyseth I do know.. you get less power(its a lower octane) and less mileage from e85, its a weaker fuel type. The benefit to it is that its renewable and produces less pollutants.

[daddyseth1]

Originally Posted by diarmadhi

The answer to that daddyseth I do know.. you get less power(its a lower octane) and less mileage from e85, its a weaker fuel type. The benefit to it is that its renewable and produces less pollutants.

Really! Well, I won't need that for the Camaro. That is why I am going to keep my Lumina (for the work vehicle).

[truvkngfan]

Actually, I thought, and of course may be wrong, that the E85 runbs at a much higher octane (like 105) The reason it says 85 is that it is 85% ethanol and 15% regular gas or something like that. The problems that arise with E85 is that your gas mileage actually goes down. It isn't as efficient as regular gas. The difference in mileage isn't as much as the typical difference in price. Also the E85 is incredibly better for the environment.

[The_Stache]

You are correct truvkngfan, it is rated at a higher octane but its energy level comparer to regular gas is much lower.

Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 96 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 10-15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on the way one drives, the air pressure in the tires, and additional driving conditions.

E85 is actually E70 in the winter months as to assist in cold starting problems. A listing of when the fuel blend should change is located in the Handbook for Handling, Storing and Dispensing E85.

For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%. Research indicates Ford FFVs experience a 5% horsepower gain on E85. The range of any particular vehicle is dependent on the size of the fuel tank and driving habits. Current Ford Taurus FFVs have an 18-gallon fuel tank and will normally travel 350 miles between refuelings.

from here, great site on e85 stuff..
e85 main site

[LSxcellent]

OK Folks so the summary is this:

The Good News:
E85 has a MUCH higher octane level than regular gas (somewhere in the 95-105 range)... this means that your engine COULD make MORE power using E85 if the ECU has the range of adjustment it needs to advance the timing far enough to take advantage of this high octane fuel.

The Bad News:

Since E85 has a lower energy density (amount of energy per unit volume) your injectors will have to inject MORE of this fuel into your engine to make all this power.

Or, to throw in some math to get to the truth

On average, E85 is about 20% Cheaper than regular gas (from my quick search just now), but due to its reduced energy content, you need to use about 40% MORE fuel to run your car... thus you will NOT save any money running it! <edit: According to the article below, actual reductions in fuel economy ranged from 20-29%>

Now if E85 cost HALF as much as gasoline, THEN we are starting to save money... but until then it will remain a challenge. <edit: it seems you really need E85 to come it at about 30% cheaper to start to benefit economically>

Technical Issues of E85 Compatability

In order for your car to be E85 compatible, you actually NEED the whole fuel system to be plastic (or made of a metal that doesn't mind water). E85 is very corrosive to regular mild steel, and so special car has to be taken to isolate this fuel from mild steel parts (like the gas tank, fuel lines, injectors, etc) that may rust. There ALSO has to be additional tuning done to the ECU to take advantage of the higher octance fuel **THOUGH NO ONE REALLY TUNE THEM ALL THE WAY TO 105 OCTANE COMPATABILITY FOR SAFETY REASONS!!! THEY DON'T WANT TO BLOW UP A PISTON IF YOU SUDDENLY DROP IN 87 OCTANE FUEL**.

In general, these changes add cost and weight, and so are not done lightly.

If you want the BEST mileage, use 93 octane gasoline and drive nice.

~LSx

[MerF]

Originally Posted by LSxcellent

THEY DON'T WANT TO BLOW UP A PISTON IF YOU SUDDENLY DROP IN 87 OCTANE FUEL**.

Excellent post, thank you! I just want to comment on this sentence. They shouldn't even worry about that...there's plenty of cars on the market today that have a high enough c/r and tune that if you threw 87 Octane in them would melt a piston in no time. That's why there's stickers everywhere reminding the owner/operator to only use the highest octane available. I only say that because I would hope they wouldn't de-tune the car so much just because some people are too stupid to breath, let alone operate a performance automobile!

[TAG UR IT]

Good find on that article.

[Casull]

I am not going to touch the whole global warming topic with a ten foot pole again...

However, the benefits of E85 over Gasoline from a fuel standpoint (again, not environmental) are few. There was actually a great article in one of the more recent issues of MotorTrend (the one with the blue WRX on the cover) talking about the various alternative fuels and their pros and cons as fuel sources

E85, as has been mentioned, has much less energy potential than does Gasoline, so it is going to take a lot more of it to achieve the same power output. This means that you are going to burn through a tank much faster.

I dunno where LSx got the figure on the cost of E85 being 20% less than gas, but around here it is actually MORE expensive than gas by about 20 cents. I don't know about you guys, but I am not nearly concerned enough about the environmental benefits of E85 to take an addition 20 cents/gal hit at the pump.

Until Al Gore starts showing some concrete evidence that our carbon emmissions are undoubedly causing global warming, then I will stick to Gas until there is a more comparable alternative... ok, so I lied about not touching the topic....

[MerF]

Originally Posted by Casull

... ok, so I lied about not touching the topic....

Hi. We haven't met because I'm noobish and joined while you were on hiatus.

But that cracked me up and I had to introduce myself.

[Casull]

Originally Posted by MerF

Hi. We haven't met because I'm noobish and joined while you were on hiatus.

But that cracked me up and I had to introduce myself.

Welcome, glad to have you on our little site here!