POLL: What type of FI would you choose?

[robertway]

While I am no expert in the realm of forced induction I have spent a few months now researching and trying to determine which route I want to go for my application and so far I am heavily leaning toward Centrifugal S/C with the main reasons being;

1. I feel it is an easier torque curve on the drivetrain, it comes on gradual and pulls like a mother until redline. While I know the ultimate control of torque is your right foot I just didn't want full boost and torque so low in the rpm range, too much of a punch in the gut of the drivetrain over time in my opinion and for a car I hope to run for well over 100k miles and hopefully 10 years, longevity weighs heavily on my decision.

2. Intake temperature is a concern for me and the Centrifugals keep the charge air much cooler from the reading I have done. The Top Mounts can suffer from heat soak and wanting to eventually road course the car I want to keep the IAT's down as much as possible.

I'll reiterate I am no expert so right now this is just a layman's opinion and I still haven't fully immersed myself in the single or twin turbo option but I have plenty of time to decide as I am just doing some exhaust bolt ons this year, probably a cam next year and then will look to invest in some type of boost in the third year.

[obzidian]

Originally Posted by Legend

I went with the Maggie...it's a simple design, makes great HP for daily driving and a weekend track car from time to time.

Simple to install, easy maintenance, looks gorgeous sitting there on top of the LS3, doesn't take away from anything as far as looks go under there either...I'm running the "stock" tune on mine.

Yes, different set ups can make for more HP but honestly...I can spin the tires at 40 mph now......so while I understand everyone seems to want a system that can grow to more and more HP, I'm not sure for a daily driver how much more HP the car would need?

I love my TVS2300...exactly what I wanted...actually, it's twice the fun I thought it would be...very happy with my supercharged Camaro SS!

Looks great! It is without a doubt that the TVS2300 will make a fun car more fun.... but so that turbo'd SS I test drove for a day. The rush when boost kicked it was just to much!

The PDS will always have that OEM look, unless you are into factory turbo cars. Big shinny blower is always a crowd pleaser, but again, so is a centi or a turbo sitting pretty in the engine bay.

As for the maintenance, true, but as power levels go up, belt slippage becomes a problem and heaven forbid you throw a belt that you cannot find after words. The stock tune is just fine.

Now, here is something that I was just talking about. A drawback of the PDS is that the tires are being overworked in the lower regions of the powerband... i.e., traction problems. The reason you are seeing traction issues at 40mph (2nd gear right mid to high rpms) versus a turbo that might spool a bit softer and be more manageable in the mid range. (Or a centi for that matter.) So, it is not a matter of you not being able to grow with your FI, it is that you have to now know HOW to better use that power you are now developing. DR's will help out tons of maybe a street tire that are better than the pirelli's you are running? (Your running pirelli's right?)

I guess it really depends if you are honestly the kind of person that WILL NOT WANT ANYMORE than what the 5-6psi will give you from ANY form of FI. But, if you are like me and will probably get bored as soon as the power us manageable again, then you are now interested to see what a few more psi of power can!!!

Again, 500rwhp+ is manageable.... you just have to find the right chassis/drivetrain/suspension setups/settings.

Originally Posted by radz282003

Legend makes a great point, at least for me, in that all the power in the world is great, but it's no good if you can't use it. That's one of the reasons knowing what your expectations are are going to be among the most important things. If you know you're going to be scared to drive a 600 RWHP car, then why build one up with that much power? Why buy parts that will make that much power? I think that's pretty much my limit and the way that gets me there the most reliably, and efficiently will be the way I'd go.

JMVHO.

Well, you bring up two great points.

1. If you are not going to want more than the usual 560rwhp-600rwhp most FI kits are producing now out of the box with a stock LS3, then you should be happy with whatever choice you made... see how you like and if you want to go more. More often times than nought, you might want to see what she can do with a few more psi... its called being a boost junkie... and there is no cure.

But, no setup cannot be tamed or cured of tractionless acceleration. Some make it easier (turbo/centi down low) others make it more difficult. Again, whatever you choose, you have to find the right balance to make it all work as well as possible.

2. Now, this is something that I'm starting to see being repeated and I hope I can clarify on it.

RELIABILITY. EFFICIENCY.

Let us not assume that since it looks simple (PDS) that it is also more reliable. OR vice versa, that a turbo that is sitting next to the motor and with the BOV/WG's, it is not reliable at all. Most kits now a-days have a certain degree of failure but let us not assume that one is just more reliable than the other.

While belt slippage might a problem with one, a boost leak can hold you back some to not having enough belt wrap and not spinning the charger correctly.

When it comes to efficiency... nothing beats or can compete with a properly mapped turbo to your motor. You don't need the motor to turn a pulley to turn the charger/blower. IAT's is also a problem and again, turbo's with a good intercooler infront of it can be damn impressive.

So, If they're was a simple way to graph it, it would look like this.

more efficient to less efficient:

Turbo - Centi - PDS

Now, the twin screw and even the new TVS have improved in the parasitic loss department but you still need that motor to turn the blower.

Originally Posted by Gotthat02fire

Maggie all the way lots of room for upgrading gotta love that!!!!

Looks good! What goals do you have in mind? (power wise, track times, etc.)

Originally Posted by Jchaluja

APS style, Twin Precision 5862B Turbochargers.
My best run has been 11.30 @125 mph, I have been running under 11.5 secs 1/4 consistently. That's with 7 lbs of boost.

Love that mph at a very conservative 7lbs. You have enough to play with to get you in the high 130's, to mid 140mph range so keep going dude!

Originally Posted by Jchaluja

Yes, 545 rwhp and 545 torque....

Good power numbers... and that torque is exactly what I was referring to... though a single can be setup to make great torque (more on this latter), that single setup is spooling up quickly and making tons of power right in the middle of the range... not to low where it may overpower the tires but a smooth power delivery.

Originally Posted by robertway

While I am no expert in the realm of forced induction I have spent a few months now researching and trying to determine which route I want to go for my application and so far I am heavily leaning toward Centrifugal S/C with the main reasons being;

1. I feel it is an easier torque curve on the drivetrain, it comes on gradual and pulls like a mother until redline. While I know the ultimate control of torque is your right foot I just didn't want full boost and torque so low in the rpm range, too much of a punch in the gut of the drivetrain over time in my opinion and for a car I hope to run for well over 100k miles and hopefully 10 years, longevity weighs heavily on my decision.

2. Intake temperature is a concern for me and the Centrifugals keep the charge air much cooler from the reading I have done. The Top Mounts can suffer from heat soak and wanting to eventually road course the car I want to keep the IAT's down as much as possible.

I'll reiterate I am no expert so right now this is just a layman's opinion and I still haven't fully immersed myself in the single or twin turbo option but I have plenty of time to decide as I am just doing some exhaust bolt ons this year, probably a cam next year and then will look to invest in some type of boost in the third year.

Centrifugals are a great FI system. I was interested in seeing what one would do with my ls7. IAT's can be better than a PDS that are prone to heat soak, i'm a bit concerned that you are interested in Road Racing and with a centrifugal, and the constant up and down rpm nature of that type of racing, a belt-driven charger, IMO, would concern me as belt life will be a big concern in the back of my mind.

If you ever watched an EVO 9 with a big turbo at a time attack or in an autocross... you would see that they are doing just fine and with a properly setup intercooler setup, those IAT's will stay nice and cool all day at the track.

With that, I would like to add that without a doubt, a turbocharger system is probably one of FI systems that be customized almost completely to what kind of power you want, how it comes on, how hard it hits (or soft) and where in the powerband you want your peaks. Furthermore, you are not worrying about belt stretch or having to have a spare belt in the trunk.

Perfect example... my buddies whipple 3.3L car was running hard.. then, suddenly, he was pulling over. Before he could lift the hood, I could smell the coolant. Apparently, the belt popped/threw, the water pump stopped turning, the motor started to overheat and the coolant became to spew out of the overflow tank. In my old camaro setup (not FI), I threw a belt and my temps got up so high that it popped the overflow tank....

So, without a doubt, the PDS system seems to be the most popular, followed my the centi and then a turbo system. I would love to know why, in one work, why most folks just seem to gravitate more towards one than the other.

Anyways, let see some more!

[VADER SS L99]

I chose PD blower setup, preferably a twin screw. The reason for me is simple. The PD blowers make instant torque. In a 3800lb car that is what you want. The cost is not as bad as a twin turbo and while a twin turbo has little lag the twin screw blowers have none. The simplicity and ease of maintnance also is better. The PD blowers also have near instant boost while the centri and turbo have to build it. For a fun daily driver street car I think PD blowers are great. For all out power at the track the turbo setup and centri will do better me thinks. For me this is a fun street car first and a occasional strip car second. If I wanted to build a strip car I would get a used 4th gen F-body or vette as they are always going to be lighter and better suited for the turbo and centri.JMO

[robertway]

Originally Posted by obzidian

Centrifugals are a great FI system. I was interested in seeing what one would do with my ls7. IAT's can be better than a PDS that are prone to heat soak, i'm a bit concerned that you are interested in Road Racing and with a centrifugal, and the constant up and down rpm nature of that type of racing, a belt-driven charger, IMO, would concern me as belt life will be a big concern in the back of my mind.

If you ever watched an EVO 9 with a big turbo at a time attack or in an autocross... you would see that they are doing just fine and with a properly setup intercooler setup, those IAT's will stay nice and cool all day at the track.

With that, I would like to add that without a doubt, a turbocharger system is probably one of FI systems that be customized almost completely to what kind of power you want, how it comes on, how hard it hits (or soft) and where in the powerband you want your peaks. Furthermore, you are not worrying about belt stretch or having to have a spare belt in the trunk.

Perfect example... my buddies whipple 3.3L car was running hard.. then, suddenly, he was pulling over. Before he could lift the hood, I could smell the coolant. Apparently, the belt popped/threw, the water pump stopped turning, the motor started to overheat and the coolant became to spew out of the overflow tank. In my old camaro setup (not FI), I threw a belt and my temps got up so high that it popped the overflow tank....

So, without a doubt, the PDS system seems to be the most popular, followed my the centi and then a turbo system. I would love to know why, in one work, why most folks just seem to gravitate more towards one than the other.

Anyways, let see some more!

Since posting last nigt I have been doing a lot of reading (a couple of hours) on the STS Twin Turbo setup, my decision is becoming more complicated... good thing I have a lot of time to work through it.... As for track racing, it would be only maybe 2-3 times per year for fun..

[Speed74SS]

I have the TVS2300 - thats what LPE uses and that says enough for me. They have been tuning for a long time and it comes with a warranty, If it wasn't efficient and reliable - I don't think they would be using it.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by obzidian

Not to difficult, right?!

So, here we go!

It can be a little difficult...lol.

The views/opinions/discussions on this thread are great, but it would be very helpful if the question posed was clarified with some basic info:

1) what is the intended purpose - daily driver, weekend warrior, road race, autocross, drag, whatever ?
2) target hp/tq ?
3) What octane fuel are you willing to run ?
4) automatic or manual ?
5) personal budget ?
6) installed by a do-it-yourselfer or a professional shop ?
7) looks or "wow" factor ?
8) headroom for future power increases ?
9) used in cold weather or "high dirt" conditions ?

Some of these may be overkill, but are representative items to consider.

This is no different than choosing a camshaft. When you call someone such as Comp Cams, the first thing they need to know is intended use and what characteristics are important to the user. Budget may dictate flat tappet versus roller.

I presently have all three types of FI, but the choices for why to use each is radically different. A modified small block for towing needed a small PD. A 540 BBC in a Gen 1 car for weekend warrior drag racing begged for a centrifugal. A LSX in a Camaro used for drag racing, open road racing while still remaining a licensed street car needed the ever increasing power that twin turbos afford.

Anyway, not trying to come across as either negative or having the answers, it's just that there is never one-size-fits-all for a whole host of reasons.

You sound very pro-turbo and that is cool. This is a nice discussion thread and people have brought up some exceptional pros and cons for each.

[obzidian]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

I chose PD blower setup, preferably a twin screw. The reason for me is simple. The PD blowers make instant torque. In a 3800lb car that is what you want. The cost is not as bad as a twin turbo and while a twin turbo has little lag the twin screw blowers have none. The simplicity and ease of maintnance also is better. The PD blowers also have near instant boost while the centri and turbo have to build it. For a fun daily driver street car I think PD blowers are great. For all out power at the track the turbo setup and centri will do better me thinks. For me this is a fun street car first and a occasional strip car second. If I wanted to build a strip car I would get a used 4th gen F-body or vette as they are always going to be lighter and better suited for the turbo and centri.JMO

Though I agree that instant boost is usually fun, if you wish, read the post that legend, I believe added to the thread earlier. He is having traction issues at 40mph or low to mid range of the powerband with a PDS with the STOCK tune that comes with the maggie.

Again, though that can be remedied, that is the draw back of having that kind of instant torque. IMO, that is a mis conception that seems to make sense on paper but in the real world, I.E. the streets!! ... you really don't need that much power/trq. down low with instant torque in a car that weighs 3800lbs. If you were trying to move a truck that is over 5k lbs, I can understand the need for it but though the camaro is as heavy (or heavier) than my 4th gen., that need for so much trq down low is just going to over power the tires from to low in the powerband and increase your traction issues. In a dragcar with a true slick, you probably wont see traction issues... but at a stop light, where you have already initiated the head nod and ready to mingle, getting off the line as efficient and hard as possible without spinning the tires off is what is going to win races. In a roll race type of race, where at 40-50mph your in 2nd in the upper regions of your powerband, what good is that instant trq. at 2500rpms if you are never going to use it?

Lets consider Jchaluja's dyno numbers and graph. 545rwhp/545rwtrq SAE. Yes, since it is not a PDS, it is quite apparent that the boost is building up at 2500rpms, for example, where a PDS would have a trq. peak, and comes on hard at 3500rpms and beyond. The trq. curve is nice and flat from there to redline with the hp figures swelling to match the trq peak. What this would look like is that in a roll race @ 40mph (2nd gear) a PDS, upon going WOT, will have instant trq. and the tires will suddenly have to deal with all of that trq. .... that is where the traction issues occur. In the turbo application, instead of having that peak trq instantly, it'll hit more linear and grow till peak boost levels. What this means is that the tires will have a better tire of deal with the trq. as the power comes of more linear and not as instant.

Now, the great thing about a turbo application is that if you do WANT that instant trq./hp on a roll or off the tree on green, you can custom tailor how much power you want put down (matched to your current tire/suspension specs) by brake-boosting. (I'm assuming that most folks have an understanding of what that means and how it is done.... it is stupid easy to do really. Left foot on the brake, slightly while rolling and your right foot on the gas building boost!) So, if you want it to hit a bit smoother or come on hard a soon as you smash the go pedal, a turbo application and tricks such as brake boosting can be utilized to make YOUR car perform how you want it to perform and not have that instant trq. rush all the time that may over power your tires if your on street tires and not running around on a dedicated DR.

Again, a turbo application can be tailored to be fun (smaller AR's, inducing more back-pressure through a more restrictive exhaust flow, cutout closed) to have a quicker spooling turbo or vice versa, for example opening up an electric cutout, that will release some exhaust pressure and allow that turbo to hit later and with an increased AR, make more peak HP. Also reliability and maintenance in a turbo application or in a centi application is no more than what you would see with that PDS.

I wonder, what kind of maintenance do you feel a centrifugal or a turbo application might have that a PDS won't? Simple, I can understand by looking at it.... but you have to deal in a PDS with elevated IAT's, and the fact that ALL of the PDS are built out of a metal and will NOT dissipate heat as well or efficiently a centrifugal or a turbo application. For example, let say you are wanting for your turn at the strip on a test and tune night.. the your three cars back. You have to, like most folks, make sure that when you get to that tree and stage, your car is running at the optimal temperature and not running hot. Running hot will trigger your PCM to drop timing, thus killing performance. If you have a PDS just absorbing heat and dissipating it less efficiently than the camaro next to you with a turbo application, his IAT's much lower than yours, who do you think will win that race? Also, stop light to stop light, same scenario and potential outcome. On a roll, where there is now air moving through the intercoolers/heat exchangers, after two runs, who do you think will have more heat soak built up in there "intake manifold?

Originally Posted by robertway

Since posting last nigt I have been doing a lot of reading (a couple of hours) on the STS Twin Turbo setup, my decision is becoming more complicated... good thing I have a lot of time to work through it.... As for track racing, it would be only maybe 2-3 times per year for fun..

STS's are fun, no doubt! But if I was going to do a STS rear mount, I would take a few precautions.

1. Find a shop that has used the STS kit (as they are notorious for needed to be tinkered with to work 100%) and knows their way around it.

2. Since the charge pipes are longer, turbo's in the rear of the car, spool times and efficiency will proportionally decrease when compared to a front mount. Things like header wrap are needed to contain the heat in the pipes to make those turbo's spin as hard as a front mount.

3. Oiling. You now are introducing a oil pump in the rear of the car to make sure those turbo's are lubricated.... heaven forgive you if you used a turbo that also needs coolant for cooling! So, that is also something I would keep in mind.

4. If it rains alot where you live, I would suggest or fine a way to truly isolate the filters of the turbo's as they will subjected to the elements rushing under the car (Plastic bags!!) and moisture or puddles of water after a good rain.

5. The STS is marketed saying that they help in keeping the under hood temps down... well, I have a problem with that since a front mount, though even with headers your engine temps will rise, doesn' make feel like an oven, there are things to combat this such as header wraps and turbo blankets..... but if the filters are in the back, what good is a cooler engine bay temp if the filters are not receiving that added benefit by being in the rear of the car? I dunno, just doesn't make sense to me.


But, I will say, they sure sound like a jet when heard from behind... love that turbo sound!!!

Its really not that hard to figure out where you want to go.


Ok, as honest and forward looking as you can possibly be, what are YOUR TRUE GOALS WITH YOUR CAR?

Lets start there!

Originally Posted by Speed74SS

I have the TVS2300 - thats what LPE uses and that says enough for me. They have been tuning for a long time and it comes with a warranty, If it wasn't efficient and reliable - I don't think they would be using it.

Attachment 99714

So if LPE decided to sell a twin turbo kit, you would go with that instead of the PDS? They use the PDS for many reasons, and one is not because it is the best form of FI available... follow the money trail. LPE has been around for a long time, but when it comes to their warranty, I would highly suggest you read the fine print stating what is covered and HOW it is covered and under what conditions, what is NOT covered.

It's very simple, even though most shops just don't put it down on paper or advertise a warranty on their website, whenever you would get an engine built or a turbo kit built and installed at their shop or through mail order, if there is a defective part or their install was the prime reason for the FAILURE that necessitated the warranty coverage, just about any shop will fix the issue, part, install until the customer is happy. I've had great luck with my tuner shop and they don't have a warranty plastered on their website... it is just common business practice. If you go to the track and break something, they are not going to replace parts for free... you broke it!! Again, if it was a poorly assembled motor or a bolt that came loose, you should receive the coverage but if you toast the motor cause you decided to up the boost and not tune for it..... you are on your own and though you might receive a small discount for being a loyal customer, you shouldn't expect free stuff.

That LPE warranty is EXACTLY the same thing, just on written on paper. You track or race that car with that blower and throw a crank bearing, rod and/or piston out the block, LPE is not going to cover that work 100% They will cover what THEY DEEM was a failure based on defective craftsmanship or incorrect installation.

Just something to think about.

Also, as a side note.... two corvettes, one a C4 built by callaway and the other a C6 Z06 built by LPE Both cars go over 200mph and the latter is faster than the hennessey TT-Viper in the mile.

Both of those cars have something in common... and it is not a PDS!! Twin turbo's!!! What I'm trying to say is that let us not get ahead of ourselves and assume that a PDS is more efficient and reliable just because it looks that way or the company selling it to you says it is.

ALL forms of FI have there pro's and con's, but one thing they are have now is simplicity of getting the job done right and being cost effective. All you have to do is choose is how you want that power to come on and if you want some customization in how that power is applied or if you want a static power delivery with no dynamics, no way of adjusting how the power is being delivered.

[Legend]

My biggest factor was I do drive this car daily...it's my daily driver! I drive to and from work, to the grocery store, to Lowes to McDonald's when I want a hamburger...this is my car that takes me wherever I want to go!

Do I need more room to grow for more and more HP? No...not in my mind. I have exactly what I want. Could I go with more HP? Yes...long tubes, intake and a professional tune could easily take me to more than 600HP with this set up and I'd still be good on the stock block and drive line!

Would it still be efficient? Yes...for the most part. PDs are known for heat soak and my previous PD was known for it as well. But, I was running 16 psi out of that thing! I had a dual pass intercooler, meth injection as well. A huge reservoir as well...but it always was only a weekend warrior. This car is not...I drive it whenever I go somewhere!

PDs are in my mind, are simple. They do their job, do it with efficiency, do it for a very basic cost with little if any maintenance. Yes it has limits...but so does my stock block! Talking about huge HP you have to start looking at your entire build, not just the FI route you plan. Even the drive line will need attention if you take the HP up and up and up!

For me, everyday driver dude...this is the best set up based on price, reliability, installation, maintenance, HP achieved, overall feel, the power band (instant to about red line) and looks. It does exactly what it advertises!

[Speed74SS]

Originally Posted by obzidian

So if LPE decided to sell a twin turbo kit, you would go with that instead of the PDS? They use the PDS for many reasons, and one is not because it is the best form of FI available... follow the money trail. LPE has been around for a long time, but when it comes to their warranty, I would highly suggest you read the fine print stating what is covered and HOW it is covered and under what conditions, what is NOT covered.

It's very simple, even though most shops just don't put it down on paper or advertise a warranty on their website, whenever you would get an engine built or a turbo kit built and installed at their shop or through mail order, if there is a defective part or their install was the prime reason for the FAILURE that necessitated the warranty coverage, just about any shop will fix the issue, part, install until the customer is happy. I've had great luck with my tuner shop and they don't have a warranty plastered on their website... it is just common business practice. If you go to the track and break something, they are not going to replace parts for free... you broke it!! Again, if it was a poorly assembled motor or a bolt that came loose, you should receive the coverage but if you toast the motor cause you decided to up the boost and not tune for it..... you are on your own and though you might receive a small discount for being a loyal customer, you shouldn't expect free stuff.

That LPE warranty is EXACTLY the same thing, just on written on paper. You track or race that car with that blower and throw a crank bearing, rod and/or piston out the block, LPE is not going to cover that work 100% They will cover what THEY DEEM was a failure based on defective craftsmanship or incorrect installation.

Just something to think about.

Also, as a side note.... two corvettes, one a C4 built by callaway and the other a C6 Z06 built by LPE Both cars go over 200mph and the latter is faster than the hennessey TT-Viper in the mile.

Both of those cars have something in common... and it is not a PDS!! Twin turbo's!!! What I'm trying to say is that let us not get ahead of ourselves and assume that a PDS is more efficient and reliable just because it looks that way or the company selling it to you says it is.

ALL forms of FI have there pro's and con's, but one thing they are have now is simplicity of getting the job done right and being cost effective. All you have to do is choose is how you want that power to come on and if you want some customization in how that power is applied or if you want a static power delivery with no dynamics, no way of adjusting how the power is being delivered.

LPE does offer an 800hp twin turbo package but I like the PD Blower for daily driving and it was also in the right price range for me. I also know what I have for a warranty and have read it thoroughly. Obviously if I race or abuse my car, I don't expect it to be warrantied or to have someone else pay for it. You have to pay to play!! But I do like the fact that they have been doing it for a very long time and I know I am going to have a lot of trouble free years out of my car - it is the confidence factor to know that it was done right the first time. I don't have anything against any of the other S/C's out there - its just that this LPE package fit my budget and driving style. Rock on!!

[obzidian]

Originally Posted by speedster

It can be a little difficult...lol.

The views/opinions/discussions on this thread are great, but it would be very helpful if the question posed was clarified with some basic info:

1) what is the intended purpose - daily driver, weekend warrior, road race, autocross, drag, whatever ?
2) target hp/tq ?
3) What octane fuel are you willing to run ?
4) automatic or manual ?
5) personal budget ?
6) installed by a do-it-yourselfer or a professional shop ?
7) looks or "wow" factor ?
8) headroom for future power increases ?
9) used in cold weather or "high dirt" conditions ?

Some of these may be overkill, but are representative items to consider.

This is no different than choosing a camshaft. When you call someone such as Comp Cams, the first thing they need to know is intended use and what characteristics are important to the user. Budget may dictate flat tappet versus roller.

I presently have all three types of FI, but the choices for why to use each is radically different. A modified small block for towing needed a small PD. A 540 BBC in a Gen 1 car for weekend warrior drag racing begged for a centrifugal. A LSX in a Camaro used for drag racing, open road racing while still remaining a licensed street car needed the ever increasing power that twin turbos afford.

Anyway, not trying to come across as either negative or having the answers, it's just that there is never one-size-fits-all for a whole host of reasons.

You sound very pro-turbo and that is cool. This is a nice discussion thread and people have brought up some exceptional pros and cons for each.

Excellent suggestions!

Though I agree with you 110% on knowing as much as info as possible to determine which form of FI best suits your goals, I didn't want to make this thread to technical and start bring elements that might take away from what I wanted to bring to the turbo.

From my searchings of this section, there was/is an underlining consensus that the PDS the way to go, hands down and since you understand it as well as I do, a PDS is great for certain types of situations... but in others it can be more of a step backwards than a step forward in the right direction.

As for being "pro-turbo" I can see where one can come up with that conclusion. It is not that I'm saying that we should just all go turbo and go home as a turbo kit can be a handful if not installed correctly, tuned etc. (Or much like anything else with our car hobbie!) However, after dealing with my current build, help build and tune local turbo projects on multiple platforms, even all of the reading and research I had to do when deciding what turbo application best suited this motor, what AR housing should we use if we wanted the boost to come on at the desired rpm range, the wheels to use to make optimal power, OH... the maps!! I had a huge stack of printouts of maps I referenced for all of these projects to numerous other little small things.... turbo's, IMO, are just so much fun!

Though, I feel the best thing about a turbo application is HOW one can customize how the power is delivered. You really have the option to custom tailor where you want your peak hp/trq. figures throughout the powerband and how simple it REALLY is to. Its doesn't take years of experience or little tidbits of information like building a race engine. You can tailor them to hit hard off the line (for example, the R35 GTR use some pretty small turbo's to make the torque curve as flat as possible and peak from 2500 est. till redline. But, let say you don't want that kind of power, you can take the AR, let say from a .76 to a 1.01 and make the turbo housing uh, house more volume which will slow down velocity though with the increase of air, you are shoving more air down the intake manifold and increasing the peak HP capability of the SAME turbo you were using to make more peak trq.

They, again, are just fun and the more love I spread about a turbo application, in this case, the more I hope folks will get the opportunity to maybe see a different type of FI and hopefully enlighten a few to instead of just skipping by it, to give it another look.



But, lets not just forget about the centrifugals.... I truly love the way the produce the power and how smooth they deliver it. Also, most centi's now have a BOV so you get that cool whoosh sound when you let off the throttle! Love it! Though, again, a balanced turbo application can be built to mimic the same kind of powerband so, uh, there I go again!

A.

[obzidian]

Originally Posted by Legend

My biggest factor was I do drive this car daily...it's my daily driver! I drive to and from work, to the grocery store, to Lowes to McDonald's when I want a hamburger...this is my car that takes me wherever I want to go!

Do I need more room to grow for more and more HP? No...not in my mind. I have exactly what I want. Could I go with more HP? Yes...long tubes, intake and a professional tune could easily take me to more than 600HP with this set up and I'd still be good on the stock block and drive line!

Would it still be efficient? Yes...for the most part. PDs are known for heat soak and my previous PD was known for it as well. But, I was running 16 psi out of that thing! I had a dual pass intercooler, meth injection as well. A huge reservoir as well...but it always was only a weekend warrior. This car is not...I drive it whenever I go somewhere!

PDs are in my mind, are simple. They do their job, do it with efficiency, do it for a very basic cost with little if any maintenance. Yes it has limits...but so does my stock block! Talking about huge HP you have to start looking at your entire build, not just the FI route you plan. Even the drive line will need attention if you take the HP up and up and up!

For me, everyday driver dude...this is the best set up based on price, reliability, installation, maintenance, HP achieved, overall feel, the power band (instant to about red line) and looks. It does exactly what it advertises!

Cannot disagree with anything you just said! But those last few points, IMO, are based on how you feel about the PDS system, not a direction comparison with the other two. You are happy with what you have and that is all that matters.

Great looking car by the way, love the color combo plus the exterior body tweaks!!

Originally Posted by Speed74SS

LPE does offer an 800hp twin turbo package but I like the PD Blower for daily driving and it was also in the right price range for me. I also know what I have for a warranty and have read it thoroughly. Obviously if I race or abuse my car, I don't expect it to be warrantied or to have someone else pay for it. You have to pay to play!! But I do like the fact that they have been doing it for a very long time and I know I am going to have a lot of trouble free years out of my car - it is the confidence factor to know that it was done right the first time. I don't have anything against any of the other S/C's out there - its just that this LPE package fit my budget and driving style. Rock on!!

Sounds great! You got what you liked/wanted and that's what's important. I just wanted to throw some love at ALL the forms of FI and not just have another thread talking and dealing with just one.

Cool! I cannot telling how many threads and arguments I have been involved in or read about that exact same topic (LPE's warranty) where people, at the end of the day, realize that the warranty they are paying for wasn't what they thought it was. LPE has been around for many years and that is something that some folks value... but so has katech, W2W (now gone I believe), the "ohio-boys", MTI-houston, etc.

LAterZ!

[speedster]

Originally Posted by obzidian

They, again, are just fun and the more love I spread about a turbo application, in this case, the more I hope folks will get the opportunity to maybe see a different type of FI and hopefully enlighten a few to instead of just skipping by it, to give it another look.

Cool stuff. You bring some great info to the table. This is a great thread...

[Gotthat02fire]

I like where I'm at right now with 505rwhp and 510rwtq but the reason I said about upgrades because I am going to build the entire drivetrain late 2010 or early 2011!! I will be doing the bottom end of the motor and upgrading the tranny!!! I knew what I was going to do in the future that why I went with the maggie!!! I am hoping for in between 800 and 1000 rwhp, about 800rwtq!! This is my street and strip warrior so it has to be extremely driveable and relible!! I would be exstaict to be in the 10sec 1/4 mile range!! Yes this is an L99 auto Camaro!!!!

The bottom end is going to get stroked and rolled and with the cog system on the blower and a little meth this should be a potent combo,stall speed converter and some other upgrades in the tranny should make it a blast to drive!!

[axis]

Originally Posted by obzidian

Right. VRE's T76 made over 560rwhp at around 8-9psi and had tons of torque to get this heavy car moving.

But, I must disagree about the twins. That maybe your opinion, and that is fine, but twins, when built specifically for a twin setup, will produce a powerband that a big single cannot reproduce because of a few reasons. Remember, two smaller turbo's making 500rwhp each, when paired, hypothetically and being very, very... VERY general here.... will now make 1000rwhp.. they stack.

Let say you want to acheive a grand total of 1200rwhp. (Not bad, right? ) Now, lets just focus on the turbo's and leave everything else as a constant... no variables will matter except how the turbo's are acting during the powerband their peak power values.


soooo.... 1200rwhp. Ok:

Setup A.

376ci (ls3) with a big single making 1200rwhp at 7k rpms.

Setup B.

Same motor, smaller twins making 1200rwhp at 7k rpms.


Basically, both motors are making the same kind of power and, by default, setup A will be lighter (not much) because it only has to plumb for one turbo, not two. So, they should be about the same in performance with a slight advantage, at this point, going to the single because of a sliiiiight weight advantage. HOWEVER, the powerband of the single will be very different than to the one with the single.

Let say you have a heavy car (camaro weighs just about 3800lbs... so that is heavy for a true racecar!!) You want to get that pig moving, right? But you also want to make some sick power! (1200rwhp) The big single can get it done, however, due to the size of the turbo, the motor will have to spin more rpms to spool that ONE big turbo thus yielding a powerband much different than a motor having to spool two smaller turbo's in order to make the same kind of power. KEY!

so, again, being hypothetical, the peak values are at:

Single: rwhp at 7000rpms & RWTRQ. at 4800rpms.
Twins: rwhp at 7000rpms & RWTRQ. at 3800rpms.

(These are values used to prove a point)

So, if you wanted to have a smoother power deliver and enough trq. down low to get a big heavy car moving then I , IMO, would rather have a twin setup because of the broader powerband and less likely hood of massive backpressure in front of the turbos. Also, that broader powerband, not a potentially peaky band, will not over power the tires as hard as a sudden surge of power... again, you want a linear power band unless you like that nitrous-like hit of power.

Thus, twins have their part in the game and it all comes down to what you want YOUR SETUP to feel/drive like. Twins are not just for show.... they can make some sick power.... look at some of the REALLY fast 10.5 DR cars.... have you ever seen what a pair of thumper-sized 101mm's can do to a dyno?

While I never said twins won't produce power, they are unnecessary for making HP, even high HP. There are a lot of problems associated with twins and trouble shooting can be a nightmare. The initial costs and subsiquent upkeep costs don't outweigh any benefits you may or may not see. If you're going to compare 1000+whp vehicles, you have just opened a HUGE can of worms as there are TONS of options you can do to the engine that will change the dynamics of the exhaust flow. That's not even going into the different fueling options. You also make a lot of generalities and hypothesis's that you assume will favor the twins when in fact they most probably won't. Splitting your exhaust flow into two turbo's essentially makes each 500+hp turbo being spooled via 3.1L. This will negatively affect your spool time, thus moving your HP and Tq curve further to the right. You can get a smaller AR housing but then you start to increase the heat output and back pressure. Another example of more problems associated with twins. I was under the impression we were talking about stock bottom end Camaro's here so that was where I was coming from. Putting twins capable of producing 1000+hp is a TOTAL waste on a stock Camaro. Putting twins capable of 350 each would be better but what's the point, unless you just like saying you have twins. A single T-76 will produce more HP than your car can handle and do it VERY efficiently. As shown from VRE, it hits hard, and stays hard throughout the power band. SOO, single oil line (feed/return), all exhaust to one point, single line to and from IC, single turbo. Anyone that has turbo'd a NA car can attest to the problems associated with doing this. Now double your turbo's, double your potential problems and add a few more, like tuning and trouble shooting. In the end, it's just not worth the time and $$ UNLESS you just want to say you have twins, hense my point of view of them being for show.