Tuner will VOID warranty

[cplabaunza]

I'm sure you can install a CARB legal product and still GM would still void your warranty or some part of it. CARB is a seperate issue here...

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

Correct, except many disclaimers, especially for CA, now read "Sanctioned racing use only". Loopholes are being closed.

And yes the stupid part is you can lower emissions and still be illegal. But they don't have to make sense, it's a government bureaucracy. I know of one EO'd engine swap kit that had a non-functioning EGR valve on it, in order to pass the visual inspection. (this was quite a few years ago). This kit was sold by a OEM!

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

My bad for assuming their website was correct...seems odd to claim to be owned by someone, that does not actually own you??

https://www.superchips.com/#pn=compg&pid=28&psid=612

Originally Posted by jrc1122

winner !!

It says that they were acquired by MSD Performance in 2005. It doesn't say they still are Don't believe everything you read on the internet, verify, verify, verify.

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by cplabaunza

I'm sure you can install a CARB legal product and still GM would still void your warranty or some part of it. CARB is a seperate issue here...

The Feds recognize the EO number as being in compliance nationwide. So as a legal replacement Magnasson-Moss kicks in and you can get SEMA involved. Ask the deraler to put it in writing.

[radz28]

This is important too:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...57#post1763057

[jrc1122]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

It says that they were acquired by MSD Performance in 2005. It doesn't say they still are Don't believe everything you read on the internet, verify, verify, verify.

I don't...Including your posts.. lol

[1fastdog]

Originally Posted by jrc1122

I don't...Including your posts.. lol

In my personal opinion, I don't understand what all the worry is about.

There are very few situations in life where you can have your cake and eat it too.

Anyone familiar with the language used in almost every state consumer protection legislation which pertains to motor vehicles under a manufacturer's warranty will be familiar with the term "conformity".

Anything that fails and is covered under the limited vehicle warranty is considered a non-conformity. IOW, not operating as designed and also hampers the use or safety of the vehicle.

It can be argued that changing the control parameters of the vehicle's powertrain moves any concerns outside the conformity possibilities. IOW, outside the design parameters and no longer the manufacturer's responsibility.

It could be said that the real issue is whether or not one can get 'caught" and thus have to pay for repairs. I could be confused, but the real deal is who pays when something breaks.

I assist a few road racing teams that campaign vehicles that carry the brand of the manufacturer I work for.

It's an understood that warranties do not apply to racing. It's a reasonable conclusion.

What apparently is not understood is the notion that defeating or circumventing code designed to make things last or meet every circumstance from an emissions compliance standpoint could have implications on longevity or compliance with government mandates.

Doing so could be lots of fun or expensive.

Personally, I believe that folks that desire to go beyond should pay for the miscalculations that might be involved.

I might be wrong, but much more is made in these sorts of threads as to whether something will allow one to "get away" with something as opposed to whether there are actual ramifications to turning up the wick.

I can tell you that in racing, it's a fact that the better the driver is at preserving the equipment, the more car you can give that driver.

[JR-Vette]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

We have been very compliant with the epa. They know very well what we can do.

We used to allow customers to disable rear O2 codes, as well as disable EGR, and other emissions control devices through the handheld, but as pressure from the EPA came down to stop that, we respectfully agreed to do so. We refuse to offer DPF delete tunes for the diesel market, even if it is keeping us from being leaders in the late model diesel platforms, but we figure you're right, and the EPA is definitely going to start knocking on doors, but they're going to start with diesel first

EO numbers are not required to make a product legal, just for use in emissions controlled states, and EO testing is long and complicated, not to mention expensive. Those costs would have to be passed on to someone...



On the topic of EO#.....they are not as common as some may thing. There are certainly more speed parts without EO#'s that with...

Enough already !

smoking people into buying a tune by claiming GM cannot tell their PCM was not hacked is a joke at best.
If it was so simple to hack a tune and it look exactly like the original then your tool should then allow the same box to tune countless PCMs for that car make yet it KNOWS if another PCM is being used and prevents anyone from doing countless tunes for the price of one box.

ONE single change in code changes the CRC (checksum) and any idiot with a hex editor can see that in 10 seconds of doing a file compare.

Claiming a SMOG device does not need a EO # to be street legal is totally misleading, try telling the countless vendors who passed testing and got a CARB EO that they wasted their time and money and see what they say.

No matter how it is spinned the PCM is a EPA owned device and tuning it for a car on public roads is federal offenses as to EPA and also for violating the federal certification of the car's design.

What the "canned" tuner products are trying to do is allow minimum tuning changes to reduce the feds wacking them but you will notice their own warranty claim says if someone modified their tune their warranty to you is voided but it OK for them to hack GM/EPA property and the car warranty is intact.

If you read the GM TSB on this you notice of all cars they mention the Camaro as to invalid tunes, wonder why ?

It it easy to tell people to go tune their car when it is they who can get wacked, but it just as easy and honest to inform customers
( like when people use the tool and it pops up and says for OFF ROAD use only [ which is to say we know what we do violate state/federal/GM laws but we warned you so we cannot be sued and your on your own] ) what worst case is

IF EPA knew what you were doing here by saying it was fine to hack their requirements and re-designing GM copyrighted software I doubt they would be giving you a kiss.

You say your tuner can tune for all kinds of engine mods, if it is those with headers, no cats or rear 02s or no EGR but then say the codes cannot be turned off, wow that should be a nice smooth trouble free car

Be Honest, we KNOW your tune can be seen versus a virgin GM calibration and even a car owner with a OBD scanner can monitor engine feedback sensors and tell if the tune exists just by the PID values.

Interesting on main webpage it starts with warnings

DiabloSport products are not intended for sale or use in the state of California on emission regulated vehicles.
DiabloSport diesel products are not intended for use in emission controlled vehicles and are manufactured specifically for racing vehicles.
While the majority of DiabloSport products will give you the option to adjust your speed limiter, this adjustability is intended for race use only.

Warranty

3. Disclaimer. The Product is being sold with no warranties of any kind, express or implied.
The Product is not endorsed by the manufacturer of your vehicle and there is no affiliation between DiabloSport and the manufacturer of your vehicle. Installation of the Product in your vehicle or use of the Product with your vehicle may limit or void your rights under any warranty provided by the manufacturer of your vehicle, and DiabloSport assumes no responsibility in such event.
Any warranty not provided herein, and any remedy which, but for this provision, might arise by implication or operation of law, is hereby excluded and disclaimed. The implied warranties of merchantability and of fitness for any particular purpose herein are expressly disclaimed.
4. No Liability For Damages, Injuries Or Incidental, Special Or Con-sequential Damages. Under no circumstances shall DiabloSport, or any other party related to DiabloSport, be liable to Purchaser or any other person for any damage to Purchaser’s vehicle, loss of use of Purchaser’s vehicle, or for personal injuries suffered by any person, or for any incidental, special or consequential damages, whether arising out of negligence, breach of warranty, breach of contract, or otherwise. DiabloSport’s liability for any damages, loss and/or claims associated with the Product shall be limited to the price of the Product paid by purchaser. Purchaser hereby releases DiabloSport from all liability, claims and damages associated with the Products, with the sole exception of DiabloSport’s liability for the refund of the purchase price of the Product to Purchaser in the event that a court of competent jurisdiction determines the Purchaser suffered damages directly resulting from the malfunction of the Product. 5.Warranty. Notwithstanding the provisions of the End User License Agreement, DiabloSport warrants the Product to be free from all defects in material and workmanship for 2 years from the date of original purchase. This limited warranty applies only to the original Purchaser of the Product. This limited warranty does not cover damage caused by modification, alteration, repair or service of the Product by anyone other than DiabloSport, physical abuse, misuse, use in a manner contrary to the instructions, which accompany the Product, or any damage caused by acts of God. Contacting your Distributor or Dealer may make claims for repair service or replacement of the Product pursuant to this limited warranty. The Chip will either be repaired or replaced, at the option of DiabloSport, at no cost to Purchaser, if the defective Product is covered by this limited warranty. DiabloSport’s liability pursuant to this limited warranty and for any damages, loss and/or claims associated with the Product shall be limited to the price of the Product paid by Purchaser, or, at DiabloSport’s option, repair or replacement of the Product.

a. DiabloSport offers a 30 day satisfaction guarantee on all products.

b. DiabloSport products carry a 2 year warranty against defects in materials or workmanship.

• • -Removal of serial numbers and/or alteration of product or packaging will also void all warranties.

c. DiabloSport shall not be held responsible for direct or indirect failures due to our product.

[el ess A]

One thing to keep in mind, make sure you reflash back to stock if you tuned it with a handheld, for instance. NOT to try and circumvent warranty claims or try to commit any fraud, but because SOMETIMES they do flash upgrades to update the computer while it's in the shop even if you didn't take it in for anything associated with it. A technician that works at the buick place near here told me about it so I don't have firsthand knowledge, just basing it off what he said. So if anyone else here can verify or debunk that, feel free...

Essentially, as I understand it, with an upgraded GM reflash, your custom tune will be written over. At that point, you have a handheld that has the stock tune in it, and your PCM now has another stock tune in it, eradicating your custom tune. You can probably get your handheld reprogrammed, but it would be a PITA that would be easier to fix by reflashing back to stock before every trip to a dealer, just in case.

I don't have a tune, but was contemplating one, hence reading over a slew of pages. I've never heard of anyone losing a warranty over a tune, but then maybe not everyone would discuss it in the open if they did? I dunno.

For the most part I agree with the synopsis of if you tune, you know the burden is on you, and if some way GM catches it and denies your warranty claim, don't act surprised.

I think it would be great if GM actually invited the tuners in bed with them to offer GM-approved upgrade tune programmers (validated of course) or pre-calibrated PCMs as purchased through GMSPO, for instance. That way, if someone wanted to pay for an increase in fuel economy or the ability to change shift points a little, the owners can still do a little tweaking and not feel they could never enjoy a custom tune without fear of warranty voids. But I do understand both sides of the argument.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by 1fastdog

...
Personally, I believe that folks that desire to go beyond should pay for the miscalculations that might be involved.

I might be wrong, but much more is made in these sorts of threads as to whether something will allow one to "get away" with something as opposed to whether there are actual ramifications to turning up the wick.

I can tell you that in racing, it's a fact that the better the driver is at preserving the equipment, the more car you can give that driver.

This is definitely the truth. You believe it because it is the right thing to do.

In regards to your second para in my above edited quote... this is a crazy forum (in that respect) and you are right about that.

Anyone desperately clinging to a factory warranty needs to keep their car stock. It's not like this is a new issue for late model hot rods.

[themossman]

Originally Posted by Frost

Anyone that can not financially afford to void their factory warranty needs to keep their car stock. It's not like this is a new issue for late model hot rods.

made an adjustment...

[brtaus]

Hopefully, with this sticky, this thread will now die.

[jrc1122]

It will never die,, The "BOOGEY MAN LIVES"

[Number 3]

So am I now "vindicated"?

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by brtaus

Hopefully, with this sticky, this thread will now die.

That thread is locked, and it does not explain to anyone that the flash counter ONLY shows GM factory flashes, and it does not explain that not all tuning products show up on the CVN count, so...I don't think it is a dead thread. Just another thread to further confuse people...