minimum hp gains from gmpp headers/A.I./catback?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by swifttal

Do you have a link/company you'd recommend for programmers?

www.hptuners.com

You can tell keith@hptuners.com Dom recommended it. It's good stuff.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by Dom

It is cost effective if you buy a programmer and do it yourself every time. I tuned my car at the track after every mod. Taking it to a tuner will get expensive. I don't like dyno tunes anyway. Real world WOT is much more accurate.

Out of the factory cars run rich not lean. Rich is safe, lean is dangerous. I got noticeable boost in power when I leaned out my rich running car. I went from rich to right where it should be. I could have gone lean but it's not safe to run the car lean.

So 14.7:1 is rich? This is what cars are tuned to from the factory. WOT is a different story, at that point a stock car just goes into open loop fuel dump, not the same thing as every day driving.

The proper way to tune is to run it on the dyno to find out at what AFR the most power is made with your mods. Then take it to the street to see if you maintain that same AFR. In my case I had to adjust my dyno tune once on the road to get back to the AFR where the most power was made (11.8:1 in my case) in open loop. Closed loop is still 14.7:1 until I get into boost, then it goes to 13.5 - 13.2 until open loop is achieved.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

So 14.7:1 is rich? This is what cars are tuned to from the factory. WOT is a different story, at that point a stock car just goes into open loop fuel dump, not the same thing as every day driving.

The proper way to tune is to run it on the dyno to find out at what AFR the most power is made with your mods. Then take it to the street to see if you maintain that same AFR. In my case I had to adjust my dyno tune once on the road to get back to the AFR where the most power was made (11.8:1 in my case) in open loop. Closed loop is still 14.7:1 until I get into boost, then it goes to 13.5 - 13.2 until open loop is achieved.

14.7 is just for idle and partial throttle. WOT will be between 12.0 and 12.5 from a stock tune. I prefer to look at time slip rather then dyno numbers when tuning. Make a run, record, look at time slip, make adjustments, make another run, record, look at time slip, repeat. Then use the settings from the best run. If renting dyno time is your thing to each his own. I prefer real world results.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by Dom

14.7 is just for idle and partial throttle. WOT will be between 12.0 and 12.5 from a stock tune. I prefer to look at time slip rather then dyno numbers when tuning. Make a run, record, look at time slip, make adjustments, make another run, record, look at time slip, repeat. Then use the settings from the best run. If renting dyno time is your thing to each his own. I prefer real world results.

So you're at WOT when driving around how often?

That's all fine and good, but your method is best suited for a drag car only. Not a daily driver that will rarely see WOT and even when it does only for short bursts. I prefer to tune for all around performance rather than just WOT. Time slips are OK I guess, assuming you're extremely consistent. Otherwise, you could be off a tenth here or there and never know if you're tune is helping or hurting. On the dyno you have absolute proof of what the motor is doing at a given RPM, throttle position, and AFR. Once you find out where the best power is made, then you can tune to that on the street for your real world result.

That's exactly what I did on my 4Runner. The dyno time cost me $125 total since I did the tuning myself which is VERY easy once you understand the principles and have a laptop and software to tune with. Took me about two hours on the dyno and another hour on the street.

[BeermanSS]

And if you ran your supercharged 4runner at 12.5 at WOT, I would think bad things would happen. LOL.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by BeermanSS

And if you ran your supercharged 4runner at 12.5 at WOT, I would think bad things would happen. LOL.

I have no idea what your point is. I'm tuned to 11.8:1 at WOT. That's where it made the best power.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

So you're at WOT when driving around how often?

That's all fine and good, but your method is best suited for a drag car only. Not a daily driver that will rarely see WOT and even when it does only for short bursts. I prefer to tune for all around performance rather than just WOT. Time slips are OK I guess, assuming you're extremely consistent. Otherwise, you could be off a tenth here or there and never know if you're tune is helping or hurting. On the dyno you have absolute proof of what the motor is doing at a given RPM, throttle position, and AFR. Once you find out where the best power is made, then you can tune to that on the street for your real world result.

That's exactly what I did on my 4Runner. The dyno time cost me $125 total since I did the tuning myself which is VERY easy once you understand the principles and have a laptop and software to tune with. Took me about two hours on the dyno and another hour on the street.

You can have a street tune and a track tune. Get a wideband O2 and tune the air/fuel that way on the street. I don't want to spend the money to bring the car in for a dyno tune after every mod. Your dyno time seems to be a lot less then in my area. It's $500+ for a dyno tune here and about $100 just to run it on the dyno. It can add up fast. I really want to tune after every mod because every mod does change the VE and the MAF don't be able to accurately measure the airflow. And there are some who get cams and drive untuned. Meanwhile there is a bunch of untapped power potential left of the table.

[BeermanSS]

Nevermind, guess I didn't read Doms post right. My bad, thought he was trying to say your too rich by saying WOT should be 12-12.5, but now I re-read it, he wasn't. So my bad.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by Dom

You can have a street tune and a track tune. Get a wideband O2 and tune the air/fuel that way on the street. I don't want to spend the money to bring the car in for a dyno tune after every mod. Your dyno time seems to be a lot less then in my area. It's $500+ for a dyno tune here and about $100 just to run it on the dyno. It can add up fast. I really want to tune after every mod because every mod does change the VE and the MAF don't be able to accurately measure the airflow. And there are some who get cams and drive untuned. Meanwhile there is a bunch of untapped power potential left of the table.

WOW, that's expensive dyno time in your area. Here in Mid TN it's relatively cheap and you save quite a bit tuning yourself and just having hte operator run the dyno when you need it. It's a lot more to have them do the tuning too, but I'm a do it myself kind of guy.

Having two tunes is a good idea. I have an Innovate LC-1 in the 4Runner which works very well.

Originally Posted by BeermanSS

Nevermind, guess I didn't read Doms post right. My bad, thought he was trying to say your too rich by saying WOT should be 12-12.5, but now I re-read it, he wasn't. So my bad.

No worries, I thought you knew something I didn't

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by PsyDoc

As I understand it, when you do any type of mod...even a CAI, a tune will give you the most performance gains out of the mod. Unfortunately, the tune is only temporary and any disruption in power source (e.g., battery dies) will lead to the ECU defaulting back to the stock settings. Doing engine performance mods on a car today is not as simple as it was pre-ECU days.

a tune is not temporary, a tune basically reflashes the pcm to a new "stock" setting, the computer will still learn and adjust minor things here and there

Originally Posted by Dom

Tune is permanent. There is no default program. People underestimate the power of a tune even on a stock car. GM doesn't give it performance tune. It comes with a reliability tune.

I would definitely re-tune after every mod. Why wouldn't you? Connect a tuner, make some WOT runs, record, check O2s and so on. It's not that hard. Every car reacts differently.

while I agree with you to a point. a lot of the people who will be buying CAI and exhausts, arent pure enthusiasts like some of us. and they will be just fine running without a tune with bolt-ons. thats why they are called bolt ons... because you just bolt them on, and they are designed to work with the stock programming of the vehicle. granted, as said before, you will maximize their performance by tuning to squeeze out every last inch of power.
as for connecting a tuner, yeah, you could go out and do what a lot of people did with the 4th gen and spend $3-400 on a hypertech programmer...

it lets you change your shift points (auto), adjust for different sized tires, and lean the system out a little, read your SES codes, and a few other little things. sounds great right? sure, if you like wasting money. if you are going to spend that amount of money for the moderate gains you will see, you are better off getting a real tune.

Originally Posted by matt55

Bolting on parts with no tune is not the best idea in the world .

"SOME" bolts ons are made to work with stock stuff (I think *some* K&N intakes are desinged like this) .

When you a take a intake + cam + headers or what every parts with no tune to the track(or street) an get blasted by a stock car(or less moded) maybe you understand then .
Ive been there and done it before , both sides dumb mods and smart mods with tune .
MY 96 Z/28 with Intake/BBK T.B./Flowmaster/3.73's/ = same ET/MPH as a STOCK = not smart $ spent .

My car now has Less than $750 in it and made 5HP more than a same car with OVER $3000 in his car , I felt bad for the guy .
Something to think about ...

what size was your BBK t/b? 58mm? did you readjust the IAC and TPS? did you drill the hole for the IAC? jw. running 3.73s i take it your 96 was an auto? btw... flowmaster is one of the most restrictive cat-back systems made for the 4th gen.

as for bolting on parts without a tune, its not a bad idea, its been done for decades. the best way to do it and to keep a little scratch in the process is to get the bolt-ons you want, install them all before moving onto a tune.

Originally Posted by CWIweldace

There is only one answer to that question and you can probably get a few different answers here.

I have been told by the service manager at my dealer that disconnecting the battery WILL reset the ECM to the default settings and that the ECM in my Colorado does have limited learning capability. Any codes will remain until they are erased by external computer.

If you want the answer for a particular vehicle, asking a service dept. They work on them all the time, they would be my choice for accurate info.

service dept around here doesnt work on 94 LT1s very often. and I doubt they work on LS3s all that often either. lol

the stealership service department would be more than happy to have you bring your vehicle in and have them look at it all the while charging you $95.00 an hour to tell you something you already knew.

Originally Posted by Dom

It is cost effective if you buy a programmer and do it yourself every time. I tuned my car at the track after every mod. Taking it to a tuner will get expensive. I don't like dyno tunes anyway. Real world WOT is much more accurate.

Out of the factory cars run rich not lean. Rich is safe, lean is dangerous. I got noticeable boost in power when I leaned out my rich running car. I went from rich to right where it should be. I could have gone lean but it's not safe to run the car lean.

lean is mean when done right, but its also dangerous as hell if you screw it up.

programmers arent always the best option, now if you wanted to download the software and do things that way you could maximize your gains. but most handheld tuners do preset adjustments that, may and can help occasionally, sometimes it just takes a more in depth tune to work out all the kinks.

[matt55]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

what size was your BBK t/b? 58mm? did you readjust the IAC and TPS? did you drill the hole for the IAC? jw. running 3.73s i take it your 96 was an auto? btw... flowmaster is one of the most restrictive cat-back systems made for the 4th gen.

as for bolting on parts without a tune, its not a bad idea, its been done for decades.
.

IIRC I had the smaller of the two (58mm)
Didnt adj IAC or drill , did have to keep adjusting the TPS to get the idle back down . Oh and I had the mad power adding TB coolant bypass also !!
6 speed w/SLP clutch .
Flow-mo's , If I only knew that back then they are pretty much useless .
But thats my piont , I didnt know sh1t back then and bolting up stuff that didnt work so great together .


I keep thinking about a thread with the ls3 Vett and the shop LG .
They did bolts ons (I/H/C) and made 60 ish HP over stock with out a tune . With a tune they made even more hp , but not every car will act as nicely to mods+no tune . The Camaro's ECU might put up a fight , like the other guy was talking about Subaru's he LOST hp with bolt on and same thing with the Evo , the intakes screw up the MAF reading and make it run richer = less HP .
On the new Evo X's some mods push the car into "limp mod" .
After a certan piont of bolt ons my Evo 8 the ECU would cut fuel AKA "feels like you hit a brick wall" @WOT . The ECU thought the waste gate failed(to much psi) b/c you were moving to much air (HP) easiest/best way to deal with it was a re-flash . (Sorry about so much Evo talk , thats just what Iam familiar with).
Just something to think about .

BEST Advice with the new Camaro
Wait for a indepent shop/other members test/dyno parts with/with out tuning and learn from there out come . That way you should know if it will make more HP/be safe/cost effective mod path , or just wasted $$ .

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by matt55

BEST Advice with the new Camaro
Wait for a indepent shop/other members test/dyno parts with/with out tuning and learn from there out come . That way you should know if it will make more HP/be safe/cost effective mod path , or just wasted $$ .

I'll be one of these folks doing the testing. I'm very analytical and test everything as those of you who've visited my website can see. I'll start a new section of my site devoted to the Camaro and it's modifications/results.

[BeermanSS]

I'm going to be modding for sure. I'll test and tune for things myself. Just wish I had easy dyno access.

[CWI]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I'll be one of these folks doing the testing. I'm very analytical and test everything as those of you who've visited my website can see. I'll start a new section of my site devoted to the Camaro and it's modifications/results.

I will be moving to Alabama before I get my Camaro. I may have to drive up for a visit next spring