Lingenfelter Im calling you out....

[DeezNuts]

Point made. Im sorry

[devildoc]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Yes, of course...

I was actually in attendance when it was revealed @ SEMA and, in an interview, Jay exclaimed how he couldn't WAIT to drive it!!

Been to "Leno's Garage"? All manner of "road tests", right? But NO TT Camaro...not even yet...7-and-a-half months later...

As to those who say they have a "tune", or have dyno sheets...where's the PUBLIC PROOF?

I have a connection with one of the "skunkworks" contractors, known to have done specific work for the Camaro Brand Team as well as GM's other Divisions, who are STILL waiting for a "promised tune"...from over a YEAR ago...still no tune...and these folks ARE "connected"...

I'm just sayin'...where's the "public proof"?

Everything else is simply "marketing"...

What public proof do you want?

I mean I have the tune on my car and look at my performance? My data logs get shipped out via email and I get my ecm tweaked to work with the changes? Is that enough proof? My shift points are harder and I have a 25% torque management delete....I think that is proof enough.

[Milk 1027]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

EXTRA! EXTRA!

The LLT BoschBox has NOT been cracked in any substantial way...or there would be a tune from a reputable source for power-adders by now...

Those who say they have/can, HAVEN'T...

Again, has anyone seen a driving video of Leno's car??? Which HE promised to share, when speaking @ SEMA??? NO???

Guess what...

The BoschBox from the 2.8 TT is quite different, and NOT "adaptable", either...

I agree with part of this. I honestly don't think Trifecta has fully cracked the Bosch.

Originally Posted by devildoc

Unfortuantely Sir, you are wrong. Trifecta Performance has a tune for the V6, I have it and it works beautifully. I don't know where you got your info from, but I wouldn't consider it reliable. Trifecta has also provided the tuning for the STS turbo kit, though, there is a hold up on the STS side I have been assured the tuning is complete other wise the AAC car wouldn't have even been able to make it down the track at C5 fest.

What kind of gains are you getting with the tune?

Originally Posted by scrming

While I have utmost respect for Vince and all he's done, I don't believe he has completely mastered the ECU... I still believe there is a torque limiter that is holding back my car.... I have had a few in-depth discussions with a couple of little birdies that are very familiar with the LLT and have explained my observations... They have pretty much confirmed my suspicions... I have passed the info on to Vince...

right. Like I said, I find it a bit hard to believe someone has fully cracked this ECU yet.

Originally Posted by mrray13

That car also had 24" wheels, ground effects, and is a test mule. There are bound to be some problems.



I got an idea. What about we give them some time? You know, back off a little, and see what happens. There is such as thing as too aggressive, being the first to market might not always be the best thing. Let's not rush things here, and let them develop products that aren't going to create issues, but rather provide the performance we all crave!

The car has barely been out a year, let's have a little patience and maybe we'll see more stuff done.

The car has been out for a year. But the engine and ECU have been out for a while and it has taken tuners this long to partially break the code.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

These guys are doing all they can to keep up with V8 demand... why would they jump into a market that is significantly smaller and far less tolerant?


Just something to think about.....

Exactly. As much as we would love to see more V6 mods, everyone is still trying to catch up with LS3 and L99 demands.
Let's be honest. The V8 camaro market is much larger than the V6 market.

I honestly don't see the reason for Tuners to break their back over this when there is much more to gain in the V8 market.

I'm sure they are working hard on this, but they need more time.

Originally Posted by devildoc

What public proof do you want?

I mean I have the tune on my car and look at my performance? My data logs get shipped out via email and I get my ecm tweaked to work with the changes? Is that enough proof? My shift points are harder and I have a 25% torque management delete....I think that is proof enough.

What other things have been tuned on your car or are able to be tuned?

[esfkotaro]

devildoc, as far as I can tell all you've really gotten is a TCM tune...which is almost completely useless in regards to tuning for FI, or any engine mod. Or for me, period, being a manual.

It's entirely possible that the TCM portion of the ECU is all that Vince has actually managed to really do anything with. Which for you auto guys is great, a TCM tune is a great mod. But it still gets us nowhere as far as FI\other tune-needing mods are concerned.

I'm not mad at Vince\Trifecta, AAC\STS, or Lingenfelter. To be 100% honest, I want it perfect and right the first time. I'm in no rush. The longer it takes, the more time I have to save up for it. As long as truly reliable, complete ECU tuning becomes available before I get rid of this car for the next generation, I'll be ecstatic. For now, my injen cai, MRT2.0's and JBA's will keep me happy

Besides...no matter what's under the hood, this car is one damn sexy piece of mechanical art

[King Sun]

i feel like if it was an true tune out there it would have been out now but obivously gm made the ecm like that because they might want to come out with a fi version of the llt from factory or just some other red tape. excuse my ignorance of the matter but because you guys just have to chill and wait

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by King Sun

i feel like if it was an true tune out there it would have been out now but obivously gm made the ecm like that because they might want to come out with a fi version of the llt from factory or just some other red tape. excuse my ignorance of the matter but because you guys just have to chill and wait

No OE ecm or software was ever designed to be hacked. The late 80's GM program took a long time to hack, and it was super simple compared to the new computers/software found in modern cars.

[devildoc]

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

I agree with part of this. I honestly don't think Trifecta has fully cracked the Bosch.

What kind of gains are you getting with the tune?

right. Like I said, I find it a bit hard to believe someone has fully cracked this ECU yet.

The car has been out for a year. But the engine and ECU have been out for a while and it has taken tuners this long to partially break the code.

Exactly. As much as we would love to see more V6 mods, everyone is still trying to catch up with LS3 and L99 demands.
Let's be honest. The V8 camaro market is much larger than the V6 market.

I honestly don't see the reason for Tuners to break their back over this when there is much more to gain in the V8 market.

I'm sure they are working hard on this, but they need more time.

What other things have been tuned on your car or are able to be tuned?

I'll put it like this. I was pulling wicked timing when I put on my LT headers and my AFR was through the roof. I sent Vince my datalogs from his own flash program and he readjusted my timing and tweaked something to settle the AFR back down. Now there has been mass acknowledgement that this engine will not provide additional hp out of a tune. I believe that, no doubting it. BUT - when I'm losing 30hp or so from severe spark retard of (10.5-11.2 at 6600rpm) and my AFR is 13.8 - and I send my logs to Trifecta, which he updates, and I remonitor it when I get the new files back and my spark retard is now in the 4s @ 6500rpm and my AFR looks to have settled back down after monitoring the O2 sensors I am a firm believer that it works. Now for the TCM change I haven't even run the TCM adaptive and with just a 25% TM delete I get my neck snapped back from 1-3 gear; I'm loving it.

So if people want to say its not crack to the full potential then yes I agree - but - I'm getting a hella lot more pleasure out of my camaro right now then before. And who knows how crappy my camaro would be if things hadn't had gotten adjusted. I would have $1750 of worthless mods on my car otherwise.

[mrray13]

I think we are getting closer here. We need to drop the urge for blood when answers will do. It would be nice if LPE and STS would update the situation, and be honest about it, even if that means no FI for awhile.

That said, if we get an answer we don't like, we have to take it for what it is, the truth. Manufacturer's aren't going to take the time to develop something for us if all they get is grief and bullshit during the process. Now, if they bring something to market and it's wrong, and can be proven wrong, they can be fair game until they fix it, ala another issue. But when they fix it, we have to move on. We don't tend to do that. That scares, bothers, pisses off the other manufacturers. Time we grow up a bit.


All that said, while the LLT isn't exactly new, it's new to people who want to wring every bit of performance out of it. The CTS crowd doesn't head to the strip unless they are in the V, and even then, I've never seen on at the track. Those cars are "Here I am, this is my status" cars. Australia seems to be our best bet for parts. I would think that someone here could bring some of those products to market here to help out. I guess due to different standards with emissions and things, some of them aren't going to be compatible.

As to the tuning, I'll agree Vince might not have it all worked out yet, but he does have enough done to tweak the basics. I gained ~5rwhp with his tune and my mods. He brought my timing and AFR into line, like devildoc stated, and basicly optimized what I had installed. Torque? I gained 1. Yep, like scrming alluded too, that seems to be the biggest area on lockdown. Again though, we have all agreed a tune isn't the way to gain horsepower on this car, but rather optimize what mods you do do, and you will gain a little more in the process. I do think Vince has the box cracked enough for some boost, or the STS/AAC car wouldn't run at all, ala Leno's car from what I hear. That should be proof enough that a basic tune is available and viable, it just isn't fully complete.



Whew.....that was a lot!!

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by DeezNuts

Point made. Im sorry

No worries, Man I apologize for going off the deep end a bit.

Originally Posted by mrray13

I think we are getting closer here. We need to drop the urge for blood when answers will do. It would be nice if LPE and STS would update the situation, and be honest about it, even if that means no FI for awhile.

That said, if we get an answer we don't like, we have to take it for what it is, the truth. Manufacturer's aren't going to take the time to develop something for us if all they get is grief and bullshit during the process. Now, if they bring something to market and it's wrong, and can be proven wrong, they can be fair game until they fix it, ala another issue. But when they fix it, we have to move on. We don't tend to do that. That scares, bothers, pisses off the other manufacturers. Time we grow up a bit.


All that said, while the LLT isn't exactly new, it's new to people who want to wring every bit of performance out of it. The CTS crowd doesn't head to the strip unless they are in the V, and even then, I've never seen on at the track. Those cars are "Here I am, this is my status" cars. Australia seems to be our best bet for parts. I would think that someone here could bring some of those products to market here to help out. I guess due to different standards with emissions and things, some of them aren't going to be compatible.

As to the tuning, I'll agree Vince might not have it all worked out yet, but he does have enough done to tweak the basics. I gained ~5rwhp with his tune and my mods. He brought my timing and AFR into line, like devildoc stated, and basicly optimized what I had installed. Torque? I gained 1. Yep, like scrming alluded too, that seems to be the biggest area on lockdown. Again though, we have all agreed a tune isn't the way to gain horsepower on this car, but rather optimize what mods you do do, and you will gain a little more in the process. I do think Vince has the box cracked enough for some boost, or the STS/AAC car wouldn't run at all, ala Leno's car from what I hear. That should be proof enough that a basic tune is available and viable, it just isn't fully complete.



Whew.....that was a lot!!

Nice post.... It's this understang of "what am I really getting for my money" that is different for the V6 crowd.... at this point you guys really have to do some research to know what you are buying and what the real results will be.

I applaud you for leading the pack on this.

[mrray13]

We've got to realize, this isn't a v8 that's been around in one form or another for better then 6 years, and modded to high heaven and back. We've also got to realize that it's a v6, that although it has been around a few years, hasn't been in a car whose owners are of Tim Allen mindset of "more power", until now, so little has been done. Lastly, we've got to realize our current methods of bringing a product to market, " we want boost and we want it now!!" isn't working.

I guess it's time we realize, that although the v6 is gaining on the v8 in sales, in the aftermarket world, we are still the small fish, getting scraps when they become available. I do believe more things will come to market, but we have to be patient and accept our place in the food chain. I, for one, will wait. It's coming, it's just a matter of when.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

I agree with part of this. I honestly don't think Trifecta has fully cracked the Bosch.

Like I said, I find it a bit hard to believe someone has fully cracked this ECU yet.

The car has been out for a year. But the engine and ECU have been out for a while and it has taken tuners this long to partially break the code.


As much as we would love to see more V6 mods, everyone is still trying to catch up with LS3 and L99 demands.

Let's be honest. The V8 camaro market is much larger than the V6 market.

I honestly don't see the reason for Tuners to break their back over this when there is much more to gain in the V8 market.

I'm sure they are working hard on this, but they need more time.

Milk, the simple fact is, the V6's lagging sales are EXACTLY the reason "support" is required. Camaro's "business case" was predicated on V6=60%, V8=40%. The numbers are reversed. And to properly readjust these, for CAFE and Supplier commitments, V6 rebates may be necessary...unless a credible, compelling case can be made for increasing V6 sales NOW. And how better than to have the V6 "enthusiast-friendly"?

V6 Mustang is about to eat the V6 Camaro's lunch...through "neglect"...

N/A, with a few "common" bolt-ons, it was "suggested" before Launch that 350+ Net Horsepower was "possible"...375+ with 91-octane...from "internal" GM sources...

HELP!

GTAHVIT: To clarify MY comments, they are in NO WAY intended as a put-down of Ken, or Graham, or Jason, or anyone associated with LPE. They are "friends" of ours. But this thread was "convenient"...ergo, what I posted, above...with ZERO reference to LPE...

[gameovergt]

just want a centrifrugal supercharger for my car! damnit

[DeezNuts]

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Milk, the simple fact is, the V6's lagging sales are EXACTLY the reason "support" is required. Camaro's "business case" was predicated on V6=60%, V8=40%. The numbers are reversed. And to properly readjust these, for CAFE and Supplier commitments, V6 rebates may be necessary...unless a credible, compelling case can be made for increasing V6 sales NOW. And how better than to have the V6 "enthusiast-friendly"?

V6 Mustang is about to eat the V6 Camaro's lunch...through "neglect"...

N/A, with a few "common" bolt-ons, it was "suggested" before Launch that 350+ Net Horsepower was "possible"...375+ with 91-octane...from "internal" GM sources...

HELP!

GTAHVIT: To clarify MY comments, they are in NO WAY intended as a put-down of Ken, or Graham, or Jason, or anyone associated with LPE. They are "friends" of ours. But this thread was "convenient"...ergo, what I posted, above...with ZERO reference to LPE...

And let us be clear,

We are in no way saying you guys shouldn't makes as much noise as possible to show the Aftermarket you are a legit market.. By all means.

We just want to be sure that we don't bash them when they come up short.

I tend to agree this engine has got a ton of room to grow... but the ECM is holding it back... The computer is the key to unlock this car's potential.