New photos: Camaro Z28 Testing Against GT500

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by SuperFly03

Odd. Default GT500 configuration doesn't get the Shaker 1000 treatment, just 500. Also, what else is left out on the SVTPP to reduce the weight supposedly? I'm just a little skeptical when Ford lists the weight at 3820 and now its supposedly 3751. The wheels save some weight 10-15 I think.

Car and Driver probably weighted the car with little-to-no gas in it. Ford's numbers were probably with more fuel in the car.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by nards444

Thats why I said before an im sticking to it is I dont think GM can afford to come out with a Z-28 that cost 50 grand, nobody would buy it. And face it the GT500 is fast but nobody buys them because of the price, so its really not something to compete against. I truly beleive this car isnt a going to be a monster, i think its going to be a bulked up SS. I think your going to get something that has 500-525 HP some different badges, wheels, and maybe a few interior changes. I think the car will round out between 37-41k. Think about the selling point if the car cost under 40k say 39k. First off it beats the mustang GT and if car comes rated at 525HP, with a few extra mods youll be right at the GT500. I just dont think beating the GT500 is all to important to that many people.

You are nuts!

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by nards444

Thats why I said before an im sticking to it is I dont think GM can afford to come out with a Z-28 that cost 50 grand, nobody would buy it. And face it the GT500 is fast but nobody buys them because of the price, so its really not something to compete against. I truly beleive this car isnt a going to be a monster, i think its going to be a bulked up SS. I think your going to get something that has 500-525 HP some different badges, wheels, and maybe a few interior changes. I think the car will round out between 37-41k. Think about the selling point if the car cost under 40k say 39k. First off it beats the mustang GT and if car comes rated at 525HP, with a few extra mods youll be right at the GT500. I just dont think beating the GT500 is all to important to that many people.

I agree. Nards is insane.

[nards444]

well see I bet the Z-28 has the same 6.2 with a charger. This car isnt going to be a 600+HP monster, think you all are pipe dreaming. Look at the sales of these muscle cars that were 40+ ie challenger doesnt sell jack, the GT500 doesnt sell jack either. These cars specially the GT500 are non factors in the big scheme of competition between these companies. To tell you the truth the V6 is where the money is at in the long run. When they come out with the Z-28 specially if it cost 50 grand and thats what its going to be if its going to beat or match the GT500, they will sell the first year due to newness like the challenger did, then you will see a drop off the next year to barely nothing.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by nards444

well see I bet the Z-28 has the same 6.2 with a charger. This car isnt going to be a 600+HP monster, think you all are pipe dreaming. Look at the sales of these muscle cars that were 40+ ie challenger doesnt sell jack, the GT500 doesnt sell jack either. These cars specially the GT500 are non factors in the big scheme of competition between these companies. To tell you the truth the V6 is where the money is at in the long run. When they come out with the Z-28 specially if it cost 50 grand and thats what its going to be if its going to beat or match the GT500, they will sell the first year due to newness like the challenger did, then you will see a drop off the next year to barely nothing.

Challenger doesn't sell jack partly because it's a failure on wheels. There isn't many redeeming qualities on the Challenger. It is built on the wrong platform and is very "meh" to look at.

You are completely right that V6's are the largest money makers due to volume and the base V8's do bring in their fair amount but not comparable amounts.

Z's and GT500's are limited production and built for the image. GM and Ford know they won't make much money on them but it is more about bragging rights and showing what the platform can do than actually making boo koo bucks off them. Ford limits GT500's production to 5500/year... I also bet they sell nearly every one of those. If they built 15,000 of them then they would be selling below MSRP rather than at or above. So I do not believe you will see the sales drop you are speaking of. They've been selling GT500's since 06 and they are still crankin them out which they wouldn't do if no one bought them.

[nards444]

they only sell every one possibly because of new model year, try next year they will be giving them away. I mean chevy has the Vette whats there to try and beat. Back to the GT 500 what was 08 where they had to give them away? Think i remember some dude picking one up for 38k for 12 off msrp.

[nards444]

really all Im saying is this should they go at for the number one spot sure. But most people arent going to care because they arent going to buy them, yeah it might catch my eye to read it quick on the internet sometime, but doesnt make me want to buy one.

Right now what you think is more important to GM bragging rights? Althought that does bring positive things, or actually selling cars and making money. Does GM no good right now to make 15,000 cars and break even on them.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by nards444

really all Im saying is this should they go at for the number one spot sure. But most people arent going to care because they arent going to buy them, yeah it might catch my eye to read it quick on the internet sometime, but doesnt make me want to buy one.

Right now what you think is more important to GM bragging rights? Althought that does bring positive things, or actually selling cars and making money. Does GM no good right now to make 15,000 cars and break even on them.

It does them hell a good. You bring people to the dealership to look at the king (Z) and then talk them down and into the SS or possibly the LT. The advent of the Z and the performance crown will drive sales in the lower end models.

People go in to look at a ZR1 then walk out with a Z06. People go look at the GT500 and realize they can't afford it but the salesmen says "well, I can do this price on this 5.0 GT. It is really the same car just a lot less expensive". Sale. Done.

People are that stupid.

[nards444]

your bring up good valid point i must agree. But you have to realize that probably 50% of the camaros success was the pricing. You can hop into an SS for 31k and get a loaded one for 33. I dont think people were expecting those kinds of prices. I think if Gm had the car at 39-41 which they probably could have with a few more options built in, I think you would have seen 25%-40% less sales.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by nards444

they only sell every one possibly because of new model year, try next year they will be giving them away. I mean chevy has the Vette whats there to try and beat. Back to the GT 500 what was 08 where they had to give them away? Think i remember some dude picking one up for 38k for 12 off msrp.

That was also during the peak of the automotive crisis. I got a used GT500 with 1.8k miles for $40k out the door (taxes and everything included). It was a function of economics. Ford needed cash more than they cared about taking a loss on the cars. Same with dealers. They wanted their inventory gone. $38k cash is 100x more valuable to a company than a $50k piece of inventory.

That is why I bought my GT500 when I did... people were in panic mode but I had plenty of cash laying around so I took advantage of the deal.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by nards444

your bring up good valid point i must agree. But you have to realize that probably 50% of the camaros success was the pricing. You can hop into an SS for 31k and get a loaded one for 33. I dont think people were expecting those kinds of prices. I think if Gm had the car at 39-41 which they probably could have with a few more options built in, I think you would have seen 25%-40% less sales.

I agree there would be less sales but I do think your 25-40% is a bit exaggerated. With that said, yes their pricing is on point to the tune of being a very good value.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

When the Z is launched they will have more people wanting them than they build. Take that to the bank. It is gonna be a limited run vehicle. A lot of people are gonna be disappointed because they are not gonna be able to get one for awhile.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

no warranty no confidence in it. . . kia and hyundai are a joke. I've heard people not getting the warranty work done like they should due to some excuse made but that's with any auto maker. ford still has a joke of a warranty.

You're trying to have it both ways. First you insinuate that a longer warranty shows manufacturer confidence in the product and then you claim that the Hyundai/Kia warrant doesn't reflect that despite the fact that it is the longest new car bumper to bumper in the industry. Which is it?

As for complaints about warranty service not being performed or performed correctly as you suggest that is what you will find with any automaker to some degree. Also worth mentioning, that is a complaint more than a few consumers have levied against GM more than a few times and recently. In fact more than a few folks have suggested that a lack of consumer confidence in the product is the reason why both Hyundai/Kia and GM offer longer warranties with the insinuation being that they have to offer that longer warranty or the average Joe won't buy their cars. Typically they cite brands like Honda which still have a stellar reputation for reliability but which don't offer the longer warranties brands like GM and Hyundai do because they don't have to in order to sell cars.

Are they right? I absolutely think the longer warranties are marketing ploys, but I haven't invested the time into this issue to decide if I think a lack of consumer confidence is the reason for either company offering the same. The point here? The longer warranty argument comes with just as many thorns as accolades, and assuming that you preferred company offers a longer warranty because they know their car is ultra-reliable is not a universal viewpoint by a long shot.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

seeing how you still argue that it doesn't shorten the life. . .and i will admit heat is the biggest cause of failure, but if you didn't know that then guess you don't need to be playing with fire. But no matter how you look at it higher boost causes more stress which will cause metal fatigue sooner. like I said since you think that it doesn't I'm going to leave this discussion. and go back to my first question and add another one on the end of that.

Who said more boost doesn't add more stress? The problem with your argument is that you aren't offsetting the potential problems inherent with that added stress with the benefits added by the increase in thermal efficiency. And in this comparison, given what is a relatively mild increase in boost, say 2-3psi, there is absolutely no comparison. The GT500's bottom end wouldn't even notice that another 2-3psi was even there, you're still going to be way below the long-term durability threshold of those components.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

how do you know they will swap out blowers? why would they if their sales aren't slumping

When did I say that they would? I stated that they could in the light of arguments made here that it would take Ford 2-3 years to answer a power advantage on the part of the Z/28. Given the fact that the switch to the TVS is more or less a bonus in every way I suggested that Ford could easily answer right now if they chose.

As far as why would they change the engine if sales aren't slumping, insiders have been hinting that a power boost was already in the works for the 2012MY GT500 even before the 2011 came out. Ford doesn't appear to be waiting for GM or the market to respond with improvements, and I would suggest that is why their newest models are meeting with success.

[ViperTomcat]

Originally Posted by SuperFly03

Challenger doesn't sell jack partly because it's a failure on wheels. There isn't many redeeming qualities on the Challenger. It is built on the wrong platform and is very "meh" to look at.

.

You mean how they only sell a few thousand a month? Lets see..they produce roughly 3,300-3,500 each month..and sell around 3,000 each month..

The Challenger's sales are also split up between 3 different trims (SE, R/T and SRT8), with alot of them being the low 30's priced R/T's. SRT's are the halo vehicle of the Challenger model. The low production volume capability (it shares Brampton with all the Chargers and 300's, and after next year, an Alfa Romeo) results in higher cost.

Consider how much a 2SS/RS L99 A6 (which is what you would have to have in order to equal a standard, base SRT8) would cost if they only made around 800 each month. Or..to make things different..how much a 1SS L99 A6 (equal to a base R/T Challenger) would cost if they only made 1,100-1,200 each month.

Thats why they are more expensive, not because "its a failure on wheels". Dodge cant cut into Charger production because of the contracts it has with Police and Sherrif agencies and the fact that it is a full size sedan that has been extremely popular.