THE FIRST PRODUCTION WHIPPLE INSTALL STARTED

[GMRULZ]

Originally Posted by Roc Spo

I'm not trying to get into a fight - I'm happy with people buying whichever system they prefer, whether they intend to go racing, or just want a strong street performer. I could have bought a whipple from Tim, and may well do so in the future. Right now, Tim and I are trying to maximize the potential of the maggie. The point I was trying to make was that torque does indeed win races, and I've got the timeslips and videos to prove it. I just wanted to compare the two systems at the same track on the same day, and see which wins - a broad torque curve, or top end power. Regardless of the outcome, it still wouldn't prove anything - different tire pressures, let alone different tires, different suspension settings, and reaction times all play such a big part in the final outcome that no matter who won, no clear winner - whipple vs maggie could be declared. Plus - and here's the big part - it would be a ton of fun! When I go to the track, it's a million Mustangs and me. I'd love to race some Camaros, whether I won or not. I always learn more from losing than winning anyway, so it's all good.
as for usmcljp, if you don't drag race, and just want a strong street performer, I still say that torque is the way to go. If you never see 6600 rpm, who cares how much hp you're making up there. Instant torque, at any rpm, in any gear, is so much fun on the street. My cam is very mild - that's why I get so much low end power. Ask Tim - he prefers the cam in my car to the one in his for driving on the street. I could change cams tomorrow and make 70 more hp, but I won't be doing it, because it kills low end drivability.
Sorry if I insulted anyone, that wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to help people get where they want to go. Even though I've got a maggie, I'm rooting for the whipple too. I'm hoping Tim can find the right combination of pullies, cams, etc. to make the whipple outperform the maggie, I just don't think he's there yet.
Ric

No I didn`t think you were trying to start of fight you were just defending yor blower. Nothign wrong with that. Thats why I explained why I picked the one I did, I was defending that decision. As far as fun on the street. No questiona maggie is where its at. The 1900 especially. As you say setup means a lot. I have outrun many cars that had over 100rwhp more than my 96 Trans am, because of set up. It was always funny watching the guys looking for the bottle that wasn`t there..Lol..They would scratch their heads and wonder how an LT1 would run that good w/ out juice. Setup is the answer. In saying that however the right choice of parts that all go hand in hand with one another is critical when optimizing a drag racing combo including engine and power adder components. I went with the Whipple or would have went Kenny bell if it was front inlet because it is a happy medium between the off idle nastiness(good thing) that is a maggie to the high end rpm horsepower that is a vortech. In the Vette world centrificals win top spots among blowers for drag racing. I tried to get as close to that as possible and yet retain low rpm fun on the street. Granted its a compromise w/ the Whipple, not quite the high rph hp potential of the centrificals and not quite the tip in torque of the maggie, but gets close to both.

Anyway,s Tim`s setup will show the difference, either way when he gets the Whipple sorted out and compares his drag times w/ it vs his drag times w/ his Maggie.

Good luck, and once I get mine finished we should hit the track together and whoop some stangs!

[usmcjlp]

Originally Posted by Roc Spo

I'm not trying to get into a fight - I'm happy with people buying whichever system they prefer, whether they intend to go racing, or just want a strong street performer. I could have bought a whipple from Tim, and may well do so in the future. Right now, Tim and I are trying to maximize the potential of the maggie. The point I was trying to make was that torque does indeed win races, and I've got the timeslips and videos to prove it. I just wanted to compare the two systems at the same track on the same day, and see which wins - a broad torque curve, or top end power. Regardless of the outcome, it still wouldn't prove anything - different tire pressures, let alone different tires, different suspension settings, and reaction times all play such a big part in the final outcome that no matter who won, no clear winner - whipple vs maggie could be declared. Plus - and here's the big part - it would be a ton of fun! When I go to the track, it's a million Mustangs and me. I'd love to race some Camaros, whether I won or not. I always learn more from losing than winning anyway, so it's all good.
as for usmcljp, if you don't drag race, and just want a strong street performer, I still say that torque is the way to go. If you never see 6600 rpm, who cares how much hp you're making up there. Instant torque, at any rpm, in any gear, is so much fun on the street. My cam is very mild - that's why I get so much low end power. Ask Tim - he prefers the cam in my car to the one in his for driving on the street. I could change cams tomorrow and make 70 more hp, but I won't be doing it, because it kills low end drivability.
Sorry if I insulted anyone, that wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to help people get where they want to go. Even though I've got a maggie, I'm rooting for the whipple too. I'm hoping Tim can find the right combination of pullies, cams, etc. to make the whipple outperform the maggie, I just don't think he's there yet.
Ric

Ric,

Sorry man. I looked back at the post and I should have worded it differently. I was overly harsh. No offense taken or intended either. I didn't realize you work with Tim as well. There is no arguing that maggies are awesome performers. I have always been impressed with them. Which is what made choosing so difficult. I guess with some of the garbage posts you get on here I jumped the gun.

I guess my point is like you said, at well over 500rwhp it comes down a lot more to the driver's skills. I hope to see you at Tim's some time. Do you have the the black camaro with the HRE wheels?

I am running a 223/235 115CL cam. I am interested in your comments about the low end torque response. I understood that an aggressive cam will give more low end torque but reduce idle quality. Can you please explain further?

John

[usmcjlp]

I've received a couple of pms and I just want to make something clear. I have realized that at these power levels the stock exhaust is too restrictive. I intend to add a 3 inch exhaust. I have spoken to whipple and they believe that will cause me to drop in boost about 1-1.5 pounds.

I will have to talk to Tim and Dave about what they think I should do. Last time we gained .8 lbs of boost with one pulley size smaller. If the numbers from Whipple are correct, I could possibly go down as much as 2 pulley sizes.

I think it will depend a lot on if the MSD boost a pump can maintain fuel pressure at those levels. If everything goes as expected we could end up well over 700rwhp. I'm not sure the stock bottom end can handle that.

I also wonder if by running a smaller pulley, we will be putting the larger 2.9L blower into a more efficient operating range. It barely felt like the blower was working with the 4 inch pulley. I wonder how the power curve will look after that. Any thoughts from the more experienced crowd here?

[Roc Spo]

With yout IATs so low, it's a no brainer to go down 2 pully sizes, as long as belt slippage doesn't become an issue. More torque everywhere, and more HP too.
The more you push it, the sooner the bottom end will go. It just wasn't designed with this power level in mind.
I'm worried about the boost a pump. Overrevving the stock pump is just asking for trouble in the long run. Do what Tim suggested, and install the dual pumps. Then you're safe, no matter how much power you end up making.
Too aggressive a cam will kill fuel consumption, kill driveability, AND kill low end torque. You need to keep the port velocity up to maintain fuel atomization, otherwise all the fuel won't burn, it will just drip out the tailpipes. Go wild where ever else you want, but on a street car, stay conservative on the cam.
I'm hoping you come up with a great combination so I can have Tim incorporate it in my next engine!
Ric

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by usmcjlp

I've received a couple of pms and I just want to make something clear. I have realized that at these power levels the stock exhaust is too restrictive. I intend to add a 3 inch exhaust. I have spoken to whipple and they believe that will cause me to drop in boost about 1-1.5 pounds.

I will have to talk to Tim and Dave about what they think I should do. Last time we gained .8 lbs of boost with one pulley size smaller. If the numbers from Whipple are correct, I could possibly go down as much as 2 pulley sizes.

I think it will depend a lot on if the MSD boost a pump can maintain fuel pressure at those levels. If everything goes as expected we could end up well over 700rwhp. I'm not sure the stock bottom end can handle that.

I also wonder if by running a smaller pulley, we will be putting the larger 2.9L blower into a more efficient operating range. It barely felt like the blower was working with the 4 inch pulley. I wonder how the power curve will look after that. Any thoughts from the more experienced crowd here?

My only concern at this point is your fuel delivery system. I'd look into the fuel system that ADM Performance offers, since you're stepping out of the BAP and stock bump zone. As soon as that fuel pump gets hot, your fuel pressure will drop and the car leans out very fast. Put fuel system at the top of your list...
As Ric pointed out, aggressive cam will kill you MPG for DD unless this car is for Drag Racing (which I think you said, you're not into DR).
You're certainly stepping out of Level 1 S/C Add-on zone to Level 2 and that requires new fuel system, Clutch, Axle and better tires.

Just my two cents!
..Ben

[Hendrix-Engineering]

I see alot of people asume if they add a cam and drop boost they can pully down and the motor is just as safe WRONG when you add power you put strain on the motor,i cant answer how much power is safe but i can tell you theres no free lunch..Good luck with your chase,it never ends lol

[Caliman93230]

650 whp and the whipple is not even trying dam, guess one needs to think about forge internals for this s/c, not to mention fuel, clutch, suspension ext.

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by Hendrix-Engineering

I see alot of people asume if they add a cam and drop boost they can pully down and the motor is just as safe WRONG when you add power you put strain on the motor,i cant answer how much power is safe but i can tell you theres no free lunch..Good luck with your chase,it never ends lol

If your boost drops then this is a good thing. You will have more options than just going down in pulley size. You could have a more aggressive tune or leave the tune alone and sleep better at night knowing you have less chance of detonation and breaking parts. If it makes 700RWHP then you are knocking on the door of the stock bottom end. Would you really want to chance going down 2 pulley sizes for even more power then that?

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by PatrickfromMD

I was there for the tuning and dyno runs. Hey, my L99 when stock only pulled 303 and 305 rwhp on that dyno (w/ powerflow axle back).

Strong LS3 Camaro’s can pull 340-345 on it however.
Link below is my run on that dyno, (at that point, a recent LS3 had pulled 343)



So from a bystander’s point of view, this is what I got out of the session:

One:
Representative baseline = 340-345rwhp
Run with only Whipple and a tune =516rwhp
Result = 49.6%-51.8% (so lets just say 50%, most manufactures claim 35%-40%)

:

Simply put 9 psi should produce a 61% increase over n/a motor power. If the engine made 345 stock then 9 psi should produce 556

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

If it makes 700RWHP then you are knocking on the door of the stock bottom end. Would you really want to chance going down 2 pulley sizes for even more power then that?

700 rwhp far and away exceedes what a stock bottom end can handle. or should I say SHOULD BE ASKED TO HANDLE

[GMRULZ]

John,

Even though you will probably drop boost w/ the 3 inch exhaust, you may make close to the same power on less boost than you are making now. The engine has become more effecient do to the reduced exhaust backpressure, and at a lower boost level you may be able to run a little more agressive tune if the exhaust effeciency does not make all of the power back up from the expected boost drop, the tune might.

I guess what I am saying is I think you should learn the power you have now or will have w/ the 3 inch exhaust and perhaps a changed tune. 650-660rwhp is a TON of power. You being an mn6 car its going to be all you can handle at the track. My suggestion right now is start looking at things like tires and clutch after you put on the 3inch and retune. Get used to that, then look at more power and have the money saved for a fuel system and a motor fund when the 700+hp beast goes south. As others have said I think you are already pushing the BAP as far as I would be comfortable now or w/ the 3inch exhaust and retune. Anything more in my opinion to be safe a fuel system is a must.

With the right setup you have a potential 10 second car already. The key will be the setup of course and how well you drive it.

[TAG UR IT]

I can't wait to see how it runs after that 3" exhaust. I already have the 3" and 2" primaries. It's ready to go...Now...for the main addition...

[usmcjlp]

Kooks 3 inch exhaust goes on tomorrow. I will post the results. I am pretty sure I will be going with the fastlane dual pump and the msd boost a pump.

Right now Tim wants me to drive it before we do anything else. Heck it's going to start snowing in a couple of months, I might as well have some fun. I can't say enough about how great it has been to work with Tim. Most shops would try to upsell you. He has been nothing but straight forward and really stands behind his work. Plus it's really neat to see him strap parts on his camaro and then tell you whether they work or not.

I am debating a forged bottom end in a couple of weeks. My problem is I don't know enough about it. I have heard that with forged pistons and rods the stock crank is solid. I have had others recommend a 4.00 crank to build a stroker. Remember this is a daily driver. I would appreciate it if those of you who have experience would explain the options or make recommendations. I don't want something extreme that will require continuous tinkering or something that ends up making single digits in mpg. I would like to make the motor bullet proof. Thanks.

[old motorhead]

Originally Posted by usmcjlp

Kooks 3 inch exhaust goes on tomorrow. I will post the results. I am pretty sure I will be going with the fastlane dual pump and the msd boost a pump.

Right now Tim wants me to drive it before we do anything else. Heck it's going to start snowing in a couple of months, I might as well have some fun. I can't say enough about how great it has been to work with Tim. Most shops would try to upsell you. He has been nothing but straight forward and really stands behind his work. Plus it's really neat to see him strap parts on his camaro and then tell you whether they work or not.

I am debating a forged bottom end in a couple of weeks. My problem is I don't know enough about it. I have heard that with forged pistons and rods the stock crank is solid. I have had others recommend a 4.00 crank to build a stroker. Remember this is a daily driver. I would appreciate it if those of you who have experience would explain the options or make recommendations. I don't want something extreme that will require continuous tinkering or something that ends up making single digits in mpg. I would like to make the motor bullet proof. Thanks.

You're on the right track with forged pistons and rods. Stock crank will do fine also. With your blower's potential, you really don't need more cubes. Save that grand. More cubes will just eat more fuel.

I just finished a forged 6.0L build. LQ4 which is essentially an iron block LS2. Compstar rods, Wiesco pistons with blower specific rings, and stock crank. Not much need to spend more unless you're aiming north of 800+ rwhp. This motor went in my daily driver maggie blown GMC. It occasionally goes to the strip and also actually works for a living.

Be prepared for a very loud exhaust. Long tube headers feeding 3" duals dumping into just about any aftermarket muffler set = loud. If you have cats, it might be toned down a bit. Without cats, it will get old quick. Unless you like an exhaust that never shuts up