Intake/ Air Cleaner observations and thoughts... (?V6/V8?)

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by radz282003

So I'm drolling all over this picture and a thought comes to mind (care of Autoblog):



I've been tossing around the idea of the GMPP CAI and was a little skeptical that aside from removing any restrictions due to the baffles and chambers hanging off the passenger's side of the intake tube, just before the throttle body (TB), and the little tube-like deal jutting out of the driver's side just in front of the TB, I though there was a chance the lower intake box/ air cleaner could have some restrictive baffles/ducts/air foils/etc. and possibly leave some power on the table. I mean, I was thinking I'd look and see if the aftermarket (AM) would come out with some sort of conical air filter in a semi-enclosed chamber that was sealed from the engine compartment heat. I was thinking this option because if there were and restrictions left in the lower intake box/ air cleaner that the GMPP CAI would leave a little power on the table due to it looking like the kit strickly replaces the air cleaner top and intake tube. Here is a pic' of the GMPP kit on the LS7 Camaro SEMA car:



Anyways, I got looking at the RS/SS at the Detriot Autoshow and think I see a huge opening in the lower air box, just behind the driver's side headlight. If I'm correct, it looks like cold air, going around the headlight and through that area of the grille might get picked up by the airbox and eliminate my concerns over whether-or-not there were any restrictions in the intake path that the GMPP CAI does not address/ eliminate. SO, the question I have is: Has anyone gotten a good close-up of the lower intake box area to confirm this opening I think I see? Obviously, I could just wait and see when we start getting cars in showrooms and you guys start receiving the cars you've ordered, but my curiosity is getting the better of what little patience I have. If that opening is there, and there isn't any funny business with restrictions in what the GMPP CAI kit doesn't replace, I'm sure I'll go that route. I've said before I love the polished tube (I'm not too big a fan of what looks like a chromed intake lid, but it isn't nearly a deal-breaker) and think I'd be definately sold on this kit. No worries about water ingestion, confidence in OEM engineered durability, quality, and fit and finish. Some of the AM kits dont' always seem to keep all these in mind when they design replacement/ upgrade parts, it seems to me.

I'm just curious as to what any of you have have spent time with the car has noticed in that particular area. Thanks for any input

I can follow exactly w hat you're asking. First I'll say that if the stock air box has a huge opening in the bottom of it, as it appears to, then there will be VERY little gained from any CAI kit. You'd be better off having a custom stainless steel pipe made to replace the black one going from the air box to the intake and call it a day. I built my own CAI on my 4Runner in this fashion and gained the same HP as an aftermarket kit costing 4x what it cost me to build my own.

I'll be able to determine more when I see one in person, but I suspect it'll be very easy to make a home made CAI that will look as good or better than an aftermarket system for 1/4 the price.

Here's the one I made for the 4Runner. Added about 10 RWHP on the dyno and this is just a 3.4L V6 motor.

Removed intake muffler and replaced with stainless tubing:


Opened front of air box behind head light. Added a boat deck plate in the event I needed to close it for off roading:


Dyno Result and this was Naturally Aspirated (before I added the SC) so now it's probably adding more than 10HP.


Good thinking ahead there man.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I can follow exactly w hat you're asking. First I'll say that if the stock air box has a huge opening in the bottom of it, as it appears to, then there will be VERY little gained from any CAI kit. You'd be better off having a custom stainless steel pipe made to replace the black one going from the air box to the intake and call it a day. I built my own CAI on my 4Runner in this fashion and gained the same HP as an aftermarket kit costing 4x what it cost me to build my own.

I'll be able to determine more when I see one in person, but I suspect it'll be very easy to make a home made CAI that will look as good or better than an aftermarket system for 1/4 the price.

Here's the one I made for the 4Runner. Added about 10 RWHP on the dyno and this is just a 3.4L V6 motor.

Removed intake muffler and replaced with stainless tubing:


Opened front of air box behind head light. Added a boat deck plate in the event I needed to close it for off roading:


Dyno Result and this was Naturally Aspirated (before I added the SC) so now it's probably adding more than 10HP.


Good thinking ahead there man.

That's good stuff right there. Honestly, I had done something similar on my '93 4Runner. Shoot, I probably read a post by you or something, LOL. I pretty much followed exaclty what you do did - eliminated the chambers in the rubber tube with a steel exhaust tube, and cut a hole twice the size of my fist in the original opening of my lower airbox, where the intake "trumpet" was. I can't say that I have verified horsepower gains like you have, but that intake whales now and my butt tells me I picked-up a little. I'm considering something similar on my car when I get it - I just won't want it to look hacked; ya' know?

Thanks for the input though. More is ALWAYS welcome

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by radz282003

That's good stuff right there. Honestly, I had done something similar on my '93 4Runner. Shoot, I probably read a post by you or something, LOL. I pretty much followed exaclty what you do did - eliminated the chambers in the rubber tube with a steel exhaust tube, and cut a hole twice the size of my fist in the original opening of my lower airbox, where the intake "trumpet" was. I can't say that I have verified horsepower gains like you have, but that intake whales now and my butt tells me I picked-up a little. I'm considering something similar on my car when I get it - I just won't want it to look hacked; ya' know?

Thanks for the input though. More is ALWAYS welcome

I can't take credit for the original idea, that was a guy named Gadget, however I never implement anything that looks "hacked". I'm sure on the Camaro we can come up with something. The hardest part would be getting a 5" (?) diameter stainless steel "J" tube to go from the intake to the air box to eliminate the baffles.

I also tested K&N, Amsoil, and Stock air filters to find a negligible difference in their performance on this vehicle (2HP variance) which was well within the standard deviation of the dyno proving they weren't worth the money. Not sure how a big V8 would fare but you can bet I'll be testing them and reporting the results on my website.

Too many people jump on the aftermarket stuff without any clue what they're getting. On the 4Runner the K&N intake kit looses power over the stock system. The K&N filters also showed a HP loss power on my motorcycle as well as my buddy's GSXR 1000 as well.

Moral of the story, be smart with your cash folks.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I can't take credit for the original idea, that was a guy named Gadget, however I never implement anything that looks "hacked". I'm sure on the Camaro we can come up with something. The hardest part would be getting a 5" (?) diameter stainless steel "J" tube to go from the intake to the air box to eliminate the baffles.

I also tested K&N, Amsoil, and Stock air filters to find a negligible difference in their performance on this vehicle (2HP variance) which was well within the standard deviation of the dyno proving they weren't worth the money. Not sure how a big V8 would fare but you can bet I'll be testing them and reporting the results on my website.

Too many people jump on the aftermarket stuff without any clue what they're getting. On the 4Runner the K&N intake kit looses power over the stock system. The K&N filters also showed a HP loss power on my motorcycle as well as my buddy's GSXR 1000 as well.

Moral of the story, be smart with your cash folks.

Exaclty; it doesn't look hacked at all. I'll be the first to admit it looks better than mine and that you can block it off off-road is a great addition too. I can't think of a more true statement off the top of my head. Like you're saying - do the research.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I can't take credit for the original idea, that was a guy named Gadget, however I never implement anything that looks "hacked". I'm sure on the Camaro we can come up with something. The hardest part would be getting a 5" (?) diameter stainless steel "J" tube to go from the intake to the air box to eliminate the baffles.

5"? thats a little bigger than what you will need. unless it gradually narrows like a cone down to the throttle body. you dont need any tubing larger than your t/b. I would imagine its 3.5" or 4" on the camaro.


now as far as getting a J tube..... actually not that hard... if you want to spend the money for one straight from the aftermarket. you could do a 90* elbow right off the t/b then a straight tube that goes over to the air box. wont be one continuous piece tho. im sure the aftermarket will be making full CAI's available for $300-500.00 (if not more) as soon as the car hits the streets. but there will always be those who like to custom make things for themselves.

I have a friend pushing over 400hp to the wheels in his 97 LT1 camaro with a PVC intake that he spent about $12.00 on. he did splurge for a filter however, but it works. might not be polished chrome like some people want, but it gets results.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

5"? thats a little bigger than what you will need. unless it gradually narrows like a cone down to the throttle body. you dont need any tubing larger than your t/b. I would imagine its 3.5" or 4" on the camaro.


now as far as getting a J tube..... actually not that hard... if you want to spend the money for one straight from the aftermarket. you could do a 90* elbow right off the t/b then a straight tube that goes over to the air box. wont be one continuous piece tho. im sure the aftermarket will be making full CAI's available for $300-500.00 (if not more) as soon as the car hits the streets. but there will always be those who like to custom make things for themselves.

I have a friend pushing over 400hp to the wheels in his 97 LT1 camaro with a PVC intake that he spent about $12.00 on. he did splurge for a filter however, but it works. might not be polished chrome like some people want, but it gets results.

Yeah, I have no idea how big that tube is, I was just basing my guess off the pictures in this thread, but that's an LS7 so....

A lot of guys used exhaust tubing to do what I did on my 4Runner. I used SS tubing because A it's prettier, and B won't rust (rust going into the intake = bad). There'll be a lot of stuff aftermarket for this car, we'll just have to wait and see how the prices fall out. I think I spent a grand total of $22 on the one I did for the 4Runner, then sold two extra pieces of the SS tubing for $10 each once I was done to other folks that liked it. So really I was out $2 and my time. That's how I roll.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

Yeah, I have no idea how big that tube is, I was just basing my guess off the pictures in this thread, but that's an LS7 so....

A lot of guys used exhaust tubing to do what I did on my 4Runner. I used SS tubing because A it's prettier, and B won't rust (rust going into the intake = bad). There'll be a lot of stuff aftermarket for this car, we'll just have to wait and see how the prices fall out. I think I spent a grand total of $22 on the one I did for the 4Runner, then sold two extra pieces of the SS tubing for $10 each once I was done to other folks that liked it. So really I was out $2 and my time. That's how I roll.

I like how you roll.

[BowtieGuy]

I prefer a molded plastic tubing from filter element to the throttle body. Steel tubing is known to heat up the air charge coming into the engine (absorbing heat from the engine) and the plastic dissipates heat better. If you're doing it on the cheap though, its hard to beat that piece together Spectre piping from AutoZone.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

I prefer a molded plastic tubing from filter element to the throttle body. Steel tubing is known to heat up the air charge coming into the engine (absorbing heat from the engine) and the plastic dissipates heat better. If you're doing it on the cheap though, its hard to beat that piece together Spectre piping from AutoZone.

I studied physics in college, and you'd be hard pressed to see ANY difference in air temperature between plastic or steel. The air is just moving way too fast to pick up any amount of heat that would make a difference in power.

This can be proven by watching intake air temperatures on the OBDII system.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

I prefer a molded plastic tubing from filter element to the throttle body. Steel tubing is known to heat up the air charge coming into the engine (absorbing heat from the engine) and the plastic dissipates heat better. If you're doing it on the cheap though, its hard to beat that piece together Spectre piping from AutoZone.

yes and no. if you are driving an LT1 that can fry eggs on the cast iron intake manifold 3 hours after you shut the car off its one thing, but i wouldnt be too concerned about air temps between a plastic vs metal intake tubing.

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I studied physics in college, and you'd be hard pressed to see ANY difference in air temperature between plastic or steel. The air is just moving way too fast to pick up any amount of heat that would make a difference in power.

This can be proven by watching intake air temperatures on the OBDII system.

[BowtieGuy]

Air picks up surrounding temperatures pretty quickly.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

Air picks up surrounding temperatures pretty quickly.

but when the air is moving at the speed that it does thru the intake, its not going to pick up a whole lot of heat. not to mention, plastic intake parts dont respond well to nitrous backfires.... then again, a lot of engine parts dont respond well to nitrous backfires.

[CWI]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I studied physics in college, and you'd be hard pressed to see ANY difference in air temperature between plastic or steel. The air is just moving way too fast to pick up any amount of heat that would make a difference in power.

This can be proven by watching intake air temperatures on the OBDII system.

Bowtie is correct to a very small degree, pun intended. But you are also correct, the air is moving too fast to have much ambient heat transfer from any of the engine components unless you route your intake tube around your headers. Air does move heat but it also removes heat.

Look at it this way. If you are in the desert, or any other hot climate, and your car is not moving, it absorbs heat to the point you cant touch it. Start up and go for a drive and in a couple minutes the car body has cooled enough to hang your arm out the window. The moving air removed the excess heat. Now, when your engine is running the intake has several hundred cubic feet of air passing thru every minute. It will cool the internal surfaces of the intake the same as I described earlier. This translates into very minimal change on the temperature of the air between the intake source and the throttle body regardless of the material.

I can't prove this but I do have a pretty good understanding of heat transfer. I have been a welder and welding inspector for a combined 34 years, working in just about every climate you can imagine. From the north slope of Alaska to Antarctica and hundreds of places in between. Having performed many different preheat and postweld heat treatments for stress relief, I think I have a grip on heat transfer. Just my opinion.

The key is to get a large volume of air from outside the engine compartment into the cylinders = more oxygen= hotter fire=more HP

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

Air picks up surrounding temperatures pretty quickly.

Man trust me...not that quick, and not enough of a difference between black plastic and shiny stainless steel to make ANY difference in power at all.

I could use the flip side and say that the plastic will become heat saturated faster and thus infuse more heat into the air flowing through it over the stainless steel part as it will actually dissipate heat. You don't see plastic radiators right? That's because metal releases heat faster than plastic as well, but that really doesn't make a hill of beans difference in this application.