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[Mike@RMCR]

Originally Posted by Commit and Conquer

Any suggestions as to what can added to avoid such issues? Rather learn from someone elses mistakes than make them on my own. I know Mike has installed several Vortechs on the 5G camaro so I'm assuming he has worked out a lot of these types of issues... As exciting as it is to add te SC I want to still have a reliable vehicle!

The package we discussed is extremely reliable. We have never had an engine failure with a Vortech Supercharger even when we push them to the 700RWHP range on stock bottom ends.

Efficiency and the fact a centrifugal does not give as much shock to the engine and drivetrain as a positive displacement is one of many why the Vortechs are so safe.

Also Don broke his half shaft before we even put the supercharger on. The timing chain tensioner failure is do to a bad design from GM. We have seen them fail on stock engines. We switch them back to the older LS2 style tensioner.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[Commit and Conquer]

Originally Posted by Mike@RMCR

The package we discussed is extremely reliable. We have never had an engine failure with a Vortech Supercharger even when we push them to the 700RWHP range on stock bottom ends.

Efficiency and the fact a centrifugal does not give as much shock to the engine and drivetrain as a positive displacement is one of many why the Vortechs are so safe.

Also Don broke his half shaft before we even put the supercharger on. The timing chain tensioner failure is do to a bad design from GM. We have seen them fail on stock engines. We switch them back to the older LS2 style tensioner.

Hope this helps.



Mike

Thanks MIke,

Do you do the timing chain tensioner swap when you install the SC? Are there any other parts you recommend upgrading when you add the Vortech SC?

The key for me is not to lose reliability!

[Mike@RMCR]

Originally Posted by Commit and Conquer

Thanks MIke,

Do you do the timing chain tensioner swap when you install the SC? Are there any other parts you recommend upgrading when you add the Vortech SC?

The key for me is not to lose reliability!

I generally do it with a cam swap. Since it makes more since. Besides the the suspension we discussed. You are set for the boost and HP level we are shooting for.

Look forward to showing you some of our projects next week.

Mike

[tom692010]

Originally Posted by Mike@RMCR

I generally do it with a cam swap. Since it makes more since. Besides the the suspension we discussed. You are set for the boost and HP level we are shooting for.

Look forward to showing you some of our projects next week.

Mike

Ok I'm just going to come out and ask it. Several guys here have gone with SC. Most, if not all that have gone elsewhere besides RMCR have either gone into the internals and upgraded them to forged on their own or were forced to due to failure. Can you explain why your upgrades are so much more reliable than others?Are you doing anything with the clutch or half shaft. You say you haven't had any failures so far but will you say your package will last longer or be more reliable than the ones who have gone into their internals and did other upgrades.
The only reason I bring this up is because people are led to believe that a SC is the answer to all their hp wishes. They all want reliability.I don't feel they are getting all the answers.

[Mike@RMCR]

Originally Posted by tom692010

Ok I'm just going to come out and ask it. Several guys here have gone with SC. Most, if not all that have gone elsewhere besides RMCR have either gone into the internals and upgraded them to forged on their own or were forced to due to failure. Can you explain why your upgrades are so much more reliable than others?Are you doing anything with the clutch or half shaft. You say you haven't had any failures so far but will you say your package will last longer or be more reliable than the ones who have gone into their internals and did other upgrades.
The only reason I bring this up is because people are led to believe that a SC is the answer to all their hp wishes. They all want reliability.I don't feel they are getting all the answers.

Its all in the hp goals. Aslo is this a street car and only going to the track once or twice a year. Or is it a car that goes to the track every weekend. We tailor our packages to meet the customers needs and budget.

Others that have built with forged internals will have nice reliable packages as long as they were built to proper specs and tuned properly.

As far as saying the Vortech is more reliable on stock engines is something I have seen in the last 15 years. We have had no engine failures with vortechs on stock engines when ran at a safe boost level.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[2010 SS RS]

Centrifical builds boost slow. Very little boost at lower rpms and makes all its power and torque specifically at the higher end. Roots blowers produce torque and horsepower throughout the rpm range. And dont kid yourself Tom. There are plenty of failures....you just dont hear about them as it is a huge conspiracy. Don had nothing but Vortech and a BAP when his timing tensioner let loose. Timing went crazy and lucky for him nothing internally broke...but it sure could have. Also at this point Don either has to get additional tune programs for when he changes elevation or lift and short shift to avoid causing damage that would require major repairs. I dont know about you but I dont want to have to think and or light foot my car to keep it from exploding. The conspiracy regarding tuning is kind of swept under the table as no one wants to bad mouth anyone else. All I will say is look at Teds pistons. And talk to him personally. Sure maybe he should have had fuel delivery upgrades...but it was not even suggested.....I am seeing this new trend happening with several other engine builders and tuners out there.
The are being straight and honest and building these SC units the right way now. If you look at GM Performance parts or talk to them about a SC on a LS3 they will tell you straight up. Must have internals. Must have different gaskets, must have different head bolts etc. No ifs ands or buts. Talk to LPE, or Hennessey...SC applications Must have internals, gaskets, bolts.
Talk to Brian....SC applications must have internals, gaskets, bolts or be bone stock with no additional power adders...none.! Buy one from Clint at Air And he will make the proper suggestions and be persistant that the proper supporting parts be installed or he has it in writing on your paperwork that it was declined. These guys all know the right way to do this. And they are not out to make 300 to 500 on a SC (if that cause margins have got so tight) and labor to slap them on and put someone in a position that it will break.


Yeah I am on a soapbox here. But everyone needs to know a SC with any additional power adders will require several major supporting parts. If dependability is a concern. I can go round and round discussing BAP systems vs dual fuel pumps but I will guarantee which will be safer. Overvoltage operating a pump beyond specifications and putting 20K motor at complete risk..come on...that is retarded for the 6 to 700 difference.

Ok now that is out there...How about those Pats...lol

[tom692010]

Larry that is what I want people to know. Not that one tuner is better than another but that you have to go out and learn before jumping. And Mike I'm not saying your not a good tuner. You have been forth coming with answers to my questions and I appreciate that. There are new people every week coming on here and they need to be INFORMED.

[tom692010]

F- The Pats

[2010 SS RS]

Originally Posted by tom692010

F- The Pats

Tom....lol someone has to win it all. Who are you choosing.?

[2010 SS RS]

Originally Posted by Commit and Conquer

Any suggestions as to what can added to avoid such issues? Rather learn from someone elses mistakes than make them on my own. I know Mike has installed several Vortechs on the 5G camaro so I'm assuming he has worked out a lot of these types of issues... As exciting as it is to add te SC I want to still have a reliable vehicle!

Do you or do you plan on having any other power adders? Cai? headers? future cam? high flow cats or delete? custom tune? If the answer is no then you can put a SC on and use stock tune and purchase extended warranty to cover any damage. If you are like the rest of the world and want some other power adders or performace improvements then I say start with fuel delivery. This is the blood of the vehicle. Without sufficient fuel major damage can and will happen at some point. BAP systems are good to a point. However, the concept is simple..Throw more voltage at the stock pump. One of three things can happen. Pump failure, BAP failure or a blown fuse. Any of those happen and internal damage will happen. Ask Garth about BAP failure. If he was on stock internals he would have had catistrophic internal damage... LPE or ADM dual fuel pumps are good up to about 750 rwhp. cost is around a grand. Labor is about a half day. Both systems replace the fuel control module and require rewiring. That should be the first mod done before any SC period..imo of course. Then the decision between centrifical or roots. Do you want power and torque right off of idle? If you do then Roots is the way to go. If all your driving is 4000 rpm up then centrifical is a good option. Check out dyno results to compare power bands. Stock ls3 has a 3 ply head gasket. ls9 which is a ls3 with SC uses a 7 ply head gasket. ARB head bolts certified are also a much needed improvement. The stock ls3 timing chain and tensioner is clearly an issue that should be addressed. ls9 it has already been addressed. When you have all that off to do the chain you might as well cam it and do springs so you dont float anything. Push rods and retaining clips also. Now you can do all of that and you still have a stock bottom end. Cast aluminum pistons and non steel rings, powder forged connecting rods I Beam to boot. The Crank is the only part certified to higher HP. Upgrade to Forged pistons, steel rings, Hbeam connecting rods and racing bearings and then your worries all go away.

Ok cut to the chase....If I was to do it all over again.
I would start with fuel.
Do timing chain and top end.
Do internals and headers.
Do Clutch at the same time as internals
Do supercharger.

If you go backward you will end up with some mind blowing issue at some point and will be in a position of having to do something rather than wanting to do something. And the frustration at that point can drive you crazy.

Listen to the guys that are not trying to sell you a part...but rather the ones that are selling you a process toward your ultimate goal.

And do you really believe "no failures" that is bullshit and I totally challange that carefully worded statement.

[2010 SS RS]

I hear crickets...lol

[Commit and Conquer]

Originally Posted by 2010 SS RS

Centrifical builds boost slow. Very little boost at lower rpms and makes all its power and torque specifically at the higher end. Roots blowers produce torque and horsepower throughout the rpm range. And dont kid yourself Tom. There are plenty of failures....you just dont hear about them as it is a huge conspiracy. Don had nothing but Vortech and a BAP when his timing tensioner let loose. Timing went crazy and lucky for him nothing internally broke...but it sure could have. Also at this point Don either has to get additional tune programs for when he changes elevation or lift and short shift to avoid causing damage that would require major repairs. I dont know about you but I dont want to have to think and or light foot my car to keep it from exploding. The conspiracy regarding tuning is kind of swept under the table as no one wants to bad mouth anyone else. All I will say is look at Teds pistons. And talk to him personally. Sure maybe he should have had fuel delivery upgrades...but it was not even suggested.....I am seeing this new trend happening with several other engine builders and tuners out there.
The are being straight and honest and building these SC units the right way now. If you look at GM Performance parts or talk to them about a SC on a LS3 they will tell you straight up. Must have internals. Must have different gaskets, must have different head bolts etc. No ifs ands or buts. Talk to LPE, or Hennessey...SC applications Must have internals, gaskets, bolts.
Talk to Brian....SC applications must have internals, gaskets, bolts or be bone stock with no additional power adders...none.! Buy one from Clint at Air And he will make the proper suggestions and be persistant that the proper supporting parts be installed or he has it in writing on your paperwork that it was declined. These guys all know the right way to do this. And they are not out to make 300 to 500 on a SC (if that cause margins have got so tight) and labor to slap them on and put someone in a position that it will break.


Yeah I am on a soapbox here. But everyone needs to know a SC with any additional power adders will require several major supporting parts. If dependability is a concern. I can go round and round discussing BAP systems vs dual fuel pumps but I will guarantee which will be safer. Overvoltage operating a pump beyond specifications and putting 20K motor at complete risk..come on...that is retarded for the 6 to 700 difference.

Ok now that is out there...How about those Pats...lol

Holy crap! Hope I don't get kicked off the forums my first week...LOL. I opened up a can of worms! I agree we all want to know the truth and although horsepower is always enticing its not my primary focus. I want 550 to 600 rwhp but I don't want it if its going to cost me thousands to keep it running. I'm not a motorhead so I rely on guys like all of you to give it to me straight. I know enough to be dangerous! That said I feel like Mike has been honest and straight forward. I talked to another shop about the SC and MIke has given me far more info suggestions as to what I need. He did ask me several questions about my goals and invited me to the shop to discuss the car and to view some of his projects before I make a decision as to which way to go (SC or cam and header.) This is not an everyday driver for me its a weekend car for me so I put minimal miles on it.

So if these are my horsepower goals do I still need to be thinking about internals?

[tom692010]

Originally Posted by 2010 SS RS

Tom....lol someone has to win it all. Who are you choosing.?

I'm a Dolphins fan so anyone but the Pats or jets

[tom692010]

Commit you didn't start anything,I just don't pull punches and ask questions that might piss people off.Larry isn't afraid to call an orange an orange. So if anyone started something it was me.