The Camaro SS Handling Stacks Up Not Too Bad

[Stew]

The top gear Mustangs were 07s.......

[radz28]

That yellow one they had was an 07?

[radz28]

Originally Posted by radz28

That yellow one they had was an 07?

I remember a blue GT500, too, I think... Eh - it's still just a Lincoln LS, lol.

Agreed on Top Gear being entertainment; I don't go so far as to say "only", but mostly - for sure. As they say: the show's about having fun

[Sleestack]

Originally Posted by Stew

The top gear Mustangs were 07s.......

Yep

37 3:05.9 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT500 LL2 8/07

[LYCAN]

Good info, but I wouldn't exactly call C&D science either. Different drivers are going to get different results on different tracks. It happens. But I guess the take away from this is that the testing that is done on a smooth track with a race driver is NOT going to be indicative of what our cars will do on imperfect city streets. I did kind of answer my own half-brained question. On a track the live axle isn't really put to the test like it would on a back country road. Again, my Steeda would bounce around, but on smooth exit ramps it would stick like glue. But the road surface had everything to do with it. Unfortunately most of the roads in the US are not smooth like a race track.

For a few grand in suspension work the SS can be made to do very well. However you will always be limited with the live axle on the Mustang. No matter how much you put into the suspension you are still stuck with that major obstacle. That was what I was evaluating when I was deciding between the GT500 and the SS. Afterall we all modify our cars and very few of us keep them stock. Around here new GT500s were going for mid $50K. My 2011 2SS was $34K. For less that $13K I can have my SS supercharged and done with Pfadt coil-overs, sway bars, trailing arms, and bushings. I've already been given a quote by a reputable builder here in the DC area for this work. However, the warranty would go ka-put. But I am mixing many different things here...so I'll try to stay on target.

At the end of the day on public roads the live axle isn't so good fi your intent is corner carving. The IRS is much better for bumpy roads and has much better potential for aftermarket work to tighten it further. The live axle will always be limited. The problem is that most of these tests are always done on perfectly paved, smooth tracks where the suspension differences are negligible. However, I don't support people using the public roads as race tracks, so much of this might be a moot point. Actually everything I say here is just for entertainment purposes. I'm not an expert on any of this. I only have my experiences with a variety of cars.

Either way, in the end both cars are great cars. My ZO6 would pound both of them without mercy, but I hated driving it on tight back roads. My ZO6 had about $25K in mods between the suspension and engine. It sucked as a 1/4 car because it was so damn light with so much HP that I couldn't hook up. It was basically a 3000 pound car pushing 550rwhp+ at the rear wheels riding a pure race suspension. I took all day to day drivability away by modding it that far. I'll not make the same mistake with the SS.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by LYCAN

Good info, but I wouldn't exactly call C&D science either. Different drivers are going to get different results on different tracks. It happens. But I guess the take away from this is that the testing that is done on a smooth track with a race driver is NOT going to be indicative of what our cars will do on imperfect city streets. I did kind of answer my own half-brained question. On a track the live axle isn't really put to the test like it would on a back country road. Again, my Steeda would bounce around, but on smooth exit ramps it would stick like glue. But the road surface had everything to do with it. Unfortunately most of the roads in the US are not smooth like a race track.

For a few grand in suspension work the SS can be made to do very well. However you will always be limited with the live axle on the Mustang. No matter how much you put into the suspension you are still stuck with that major obstacle. That was what I was evaluating when I was deciding between the GT500 and the SS. Afterall we all modify our cars and very few of us keep them stock. Around here new GT500s were going for mid $50K. My 2011 2SS was $34K. For less that $13K I can have my SS supercharged and done with Pfadt coil-overs, sway bars, trailing arms, and bushings. I've already been given a quote by a reputable builder here in the DC area for this work. However, the warranty would go ka-put. But I am mixing many different things here...so I'll try to stay on target.

At the end of the day on public roads the live axle isn't so good fi your intent is corner carving. The IRS is much better for bumpy roads and has much better potential for aftermarket work to tighten it further. The live axle will always be limited. The problem is that most of these tests are always done on perfectly paved, smooth tracks where the suspension differences are negligible. However, I don't support people using the public roads as race tracks, so much of this might be a moot point. Actually everything I say here is just for entertainment purposes. I'm not an expert on any of this. I only have my experiences with a variety of cars.

Either way, in the end both cars are great cars. My ZO6 would pound both of them without mercy, but I hated driving it on tight back roads. My ZO6 had about $25K in mods between the suspension and engine. It sucked as a 1/4 car because it was so damn light with so much HP that I couldn't hook up. It was basically a 3000 pound car pushing 550rwhp+ at the rear wheels riding a pure race suspension. I took all day to day drivability away by modding it that far. I'll not make the same mistake with the SS.

GREAT POST! Take it on a bumpy track and it's a little different outcome. That was apparent in a test one of our Sponsors performed between two of it's project and development cars. The Mustang out accelerated and braked (won't go into details here) CAMARO, and CAMARO out cornered the Mustang. The CAMARO still came out on top - though not by much. It seemed to me, in the video, that it was just easier to keep the power on in CAMARO, unlike the Mustang, around those bumpier spots. All the power and brakes in the world don't mean anything unless the suspension can fully utlize them.

[LYCAN]

I guess at the end of the day it just comes down to the style that you like. I have a soft place in my heart for both Mustangs and Camaros. Both are great, and I'm glad they haven't abandoned them for import-inspired cars with huge wings and 4" mufflers. Pushing either one of these cars to their handling limit on the street isn't going to happen anyways. For a pure, competitive track car there would be much better choices than either. However, I might go with an old fox-body as a cheap track car.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by radz28

GREAT POST! Take it on a bumpy track and it's a little different outcome. That was apparent in a test one of our Sponsors performed between two of it's project and development cars. The Mustang out accelerated and braked (won't go into details here) CAMARO, and CAMARO out cornered the Mustang. The CAMARO still came out on top - though not by much. It seemed to me, in the video, that it was just easier to keep the power on in CAMARO, unlike the Mustang, around those bumpier spots. All the power and brakes in the world don't mean anything unless the suspension can fully utlize them.

Pedders said both cars had significant flaws that they could easily fix and run faster times. The mustang's suspension was bottoming under throttle when exiting because of part selection and if I recall, the camaro had some problems braking I can't remember why. Point being: you had two cars built by two different groups, one saleen one pedders, and both cars were super close while both could still be considerably faster.

[73duster]

There are no right or wrongs when it comes to cars. Either you like a car or don't, and comparisons are futile since there are too many differences in the cars. I don't hate ANY car, whether a Ford, Dodge or Import. I find good things in all of these cars. My first choice in purchasing a new car was for a Challenger, why? Because it was the best looking in my opinion, and even though i thought the interior was dull, i would have gotten it if it was'nt for the price. I did'nt care for the Mustang because it was the least stylish. However, there is nothing like the feel of power to weight ratio these cars have on the competition. They don't make as much power as Camaro's or Challengers, but they FEEL great, and that is what matters to ME. In the end, I chose Camaro because it had the best of everything to ME. Magazine comparisons don't change how i enjoy my Camaro, i modify the car to meet my expectations.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Pedders said both cars had significant flaws that they could easily fix and run faster times. The mustang's suspension was bottoming under throttle when exiting because of part selection and if I recall, the camaro had some problems braking I can't remember why. Point being: you had two cars built by two different groups, one saleen one pedders, and both cars were super close while both could still be considerably faster.

Yes and no. As I recall, there wasn't a whole lot more they figured they could do with the Mustang. I never heard any of them, either the Pedders guys or the folks from Saleen, say that the Mustang was bottoming out. It might have been happening, but I don't remember hearing it.

The Camaro did have braking issues that day, and I'm inclined to think that the rears weren't biting as hard as they should have but I'm not 100% on that. But, and here is the big difference, the Camaro wasn't making nearly the power they had hoped. It came down to the intercooler, the Saleen unit was far more effective on that hot, humid day than the one in the Camaro. So while the Camaro made more on the dyno, the Mustang was putting down more power on the track. They were already working on keeping the Camaro cooler before we left (probably before they even arrived).

As for being built by 2 different tuners, thats not entirely true either. The Mustang was a Saleen-Pedders Mustang. Pedders was given a Saleen, played with the suspension and braced the car up, then gave it the same wheels and tires they were using on the Camaro. The powertrain was all Saleen though.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Yes and no. As I recall, there wasn't a whole lot more they figured they could do with the Mustang. I never heard any of them, either the Pedders guys or the folks from Saleen, say that the Mustang was bottoming out. It might have been happening, but I don't remember hearing it.

The Camaro did have braking issues that day, and I'm inclined to think that the rears weren't biting as hard as they should have but I'm not 100% on that. But, and here is the big difference, the Camaro wasn't making nearly the power they had hoped. It came down to the intercooler, the Saleen unit was far more effective on that hot, humid day than the one in the Camaro. So while the Camaro made more on the dyno, the Mustang was putting down more power on the track. They were already working on keeping the Camaro cooler before we left (probably before they even arrived).

As for being built by 2 different tuners, thats not entirely true either. The Mustang was a Saleen-Pedders Mustang. Pedders was given a Saleen, played with the suspension and braced the car up, then gave it the same wheels and tires they were using on the Camaro. The powertrain was all Saleen though.

" The ride height setup limited the Saleen’s ability to put down power coming out of the corners. The next time out we will run with SOFTER rear coils that are taller leaving more room for the solid axle to work. That will improve the times on the Saleen."

That means to me that they were hitting the bump stops in exits not allowing weight transfer, but I could be wrong.

Build list with zero pedders parts

449 RWHP 419 RWTQ
American Racing Headers
Bridgestone RE-11 305/30/19 Tires Front and Rear
Ford Racing Differential Cover
Saleen 15” Six Piston Front Brakes
Saleen Adjustable Panhard bar (06-1304-B19537A)
Saleen Adjustable Pinion Bush (06-1305-B19536A)
Saleen Adjustable Rear Control Arms (06-1304-B19542A)
Saleen Anti-Lift / Dive Kit (06-1305-B19533A)
Saleen Borla Exhaust
Saleen Carbon Ceramic Track ONLY Brake Pads
Saleen Control Arm Bushes (06-1304-B19543A)
Saleen Front Single Chassis Brace Bar Brace (06-1305-B19541A)
Saleen Front Triangulated Chassis Brace (06-1305-B19539A)
Saleen Insulated Cold Air Intake
Saleen Rear Chassis Brace (06-1305-B19540A)
Saleen SR Paint Scheme
Saleen SR Racing Wheels by Forgeline 19x10.5 Front and Rear with Special Offsets to Square the Track
Saleen Supercharger
Saleen Supercharger Compatible Strut Tower Bar (CS6TB)
Saleen Sway Bars with Adjustable Front Endlinks and Adjustable Front Bar (06-1303-B19530A)
Saleen Track Bar with Safety Harness (CSTTB05)
Saleen Track Coilovers with Camber Plates (06-1300-A19349A)
SRF Brake Fluid

parts list for the camaro

2010 Cadillac CTS-V Brakes Front and Rear
558 RWHP 499 RWTQ
ACS Hood and Front Spoiler
American Racing Headers
Brigestone RE-11 305/30/19 Tires Front and Rear
Cobalt Friction Carbon Ceramic Track ONLY Brake Pads
Fluidyne 2.5 Quart Oil Cooler
Forgeline Racing Wheels 19x10.5 Front and Rear with Special
Offsets to Square the Track
Insulated Cold Air Intake
Nickey Chicago Stinger II Hood
Pedders Adjustable Sway Bars with Adjustable Endlinks
(CAMAROSOLUTIONC)
Pedders Control Arm Bushes (EP7264, EP7322)
Pedders Steering Rack/Pinion Mount (EP2112)
Pedders Rear Trailing Arm Toe Link (EP7323)
Pedders Front Radius Rod Bushing (EP6577)
Pedders Complete Brake Hose Kit (PDUSACAM2800)
Pedders Full Alignment Kit (PDUSACAMFULL)
Pedders Paint Scheme
Pedders Heavy Duty Sub-Frame Bushes (EP1201HD)
Pedders Heavy Duty Rear Differential Mounts (EP1167HD)
Pedders Supercar Coilovers (164086)
ProCharger with Stage II Race Intercooler and Intake
QTP Exhuast Cut Outs
SRF Brake Fluid
Wrapped Headers

I understand that pedders helped build the car and dial it in, but the mustang was a saleen car and the camaro was a pedders car. In the thread they have pictures of "team saleen" and "team pedders" with each in front of their respective cars. Different parts have very different results as proven by the intercooler efficiency difference. That's not to say putting pedders parts on the mustang would make it handle better, I'm just pointing out that these are totally different cars. I would suspect a lot of the datalogging that showed more power being put down by the mustang also had a lot to do with torque multiplication from gearing along with the intercooler. I wonder how a 2011 with a 6 speed would stack up, especially if the camaro got some shorter gearing. I bet they would both put down quicker times.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

" The ride height setup limited the Saleen’s ability to put down power coming out of the corners. The next time out we will run with SOFTER rear coils that are taller leaving more room for the solid axle to work. That will improve the times on the Saleen."

Build list with zero pedders parts

Believe me when I say, Pedders did the suspension work on both cars. The parts may be branded as Saleen, but Pedders did the work. Heck, I was having lunch as JusticePete was talking about the chassis braces being 'low hanging fruit' for improving the Mustangs handling.

Or do you think that its just some random coincidence that the Saleen was done up in Pedders signature red and black colour scheme and that the Pedders name was plastered on the side for no reason?

[8cd03gro]

Did I not just say I know pedders worked on the car? The point was it is a saleen car vs a pedders car, like I said that doesn't mean one is better than the other just an important thing to note when comparing, and that was the least significant point of my post. The rest you decided to ignore.

Once again, my main point is that both cars could be faster and that test is not some end all of camaro vs mustang handling capabilities. If anything, it's a testament to how capable both cars are and how close they are in all around performance.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by radz28

GREAT POST! Take it on a bumpy track and it's a little different outcome. That was apparent in a test one of our Sponsors performed between two of it's project and development cars. The Mustang out accelerated and braked (won't go into details here) CAMARO, and CAMARO out cornered the Mustang. The CAMARO still came out on top - though not by much. It seemed to me, in the video, that it was just easier to keep the power on in CAMARO, unlike the Mustang, around those bumpier spots. All the power and brakes in the world don't mean anything unless the suspension can fully utlize them.

Having been in both now more than a few times I have to say that I always wonder where people find roads bumpy enough to do this. In my experience the 2011 GT is typically more composed than the SS on all but the bumpiest roads, and when I say bumpiest I'm talking the kind of roads I would literally avoid altogether unless I'm driving something meant for roads a little on the rougher side like my wife's Commander.

The reality is that the Camaro's rear end is surprisingly easy to get unsettled when the roads start to get rough, particularly when you start dealing with repeated imperfections over a short difference. It's like rebound and compression happen about a half second later than they should and the car spends too much time trying to catch up with the road surface.

I think people see IRS on the spec sheet and think "so and so said that IRS is better on rear roads so mine must be too" The reality is that tuning counts, and the Camaro has never felt as well sorted to me as the larger G8 sedan was.