Unleashing the Wrath of the Internet

[The_Blur]

I like this guy.

Usually, these magazines have good comparative numbers because they tend to use the same methods for each car, but actual numbers may vary based on a number of factors, including the ability of the driver to understand the car.

There's a lot of nonsense on the internet that makes difficult the task of separating the nonsense from the quality information. Knowing the truth is important. One reason that I'm so attached to the Camaro is the truths that I've learned about it. The sheer superiority of the product is impressive, and that is apparent from the quality of good information that I have on it. On the other hand, many members of this site as young as I am have become victims of the rumor mill. We, as a community, should be more aware of the difference between facts from GM and fiction from our stupid dealers.

[nonsensez9]

Magazines are an invaluable source of information. However, one cannot take a single magazine's review as the gospel. Magazine X will test a group of cars and rank them d, c, a, b while magazine Y might rank them b, c, a, d. One doesn't always know what the criteria are, making the rankings nearly useless to me - especially when fun to drive and gotta have it are factored in. The articles are where the valuable information is at. There's generally a full page write-up of each car. If it's a car I'm interested in and two out of three mags give it favorable reviews that's good enough for me. If two out of three dislike it I will probably lose interest. Take the new 370Z for example; a number of mags have commented on road noise and lack of telescoping steering. Those two items won't show on any of the performance stats but, oddly enough, are important to me and I am no longer interested in that car.

[PQ]

Not a big magazine fan. I get lobby subscriptions for my office waiting room. Motor Trend and Hot Rod are two of the mags I get. Motor Trends 'March' issue was in the box on Jan. 19th. What's up with that? Some of the info in them is brand new news and some is old news even getting it a month and a half early. I never have an accurate timeline.

But the pictures are great.

[greenrail]

I agree here is a lot of editorializing in the fan mags. Not an issue with me however. The latest issue of C&D picked the Corvette ZR-1 as the best supercar. Not too shabby for GM.

My deal is that the Instrumented Testing is reasonably well thought out and well devloped over time. WHen I go into these magazines, that's the first thing I look at.

I am by nature professionally and personally driven by Data. Solid and well documented data. That way there is a baseline for comparisons.

I don't buy into my "Uncle Joe's cousin, knows a guy, who is married to a former dealer that happens to have been able to steal a new Camaro for personal evaluation.

Not exactly reliable if you ask me.

[USAFJeeper]

I like the older car magazines. That being said, I never worry about opinion pieces on cars. My wife and I just bought her a Chrysler Sebring sedan Limited. Upgraded interior - heated leather seats, tortoise shell and so on. All the reviewss call it the biggest piece of crap ever.

We like it, my wife is not into racing, she likes cars that look good and drive and handle well. The Sebring does that. It is a comfortable daily driver, responsive steering, good gas mileage, and looks good (to us ) Not only that, I got a 25K car for 18K. So, I never believe the analysis in car mags and on the internet, I see it for myself.

That being said... The Camaro could be a steaming pile of mismatched parts with the fit and finish of early caveman and I will still buy it. Cause its a Camaro dammit!

[PQ]

Originally Posted by greenrail

I agree here is a lot of editorializing in the fan mags. Not an issue with me however. The latest issue of C&D picked the Corvette ZR-1 as the best supercar. Not too shabby for GM.

My deal is that the Instrumented Testing is reasonably well thought out and well devloped over time. WHen I go into these magazines, that's the first hing I look at.

I am by nature professionally and personally driven by Data. Solid and well documented data. That way there is a baseline for comparisons.

I don't buy into my "Uncle Joe's cousin, knows a guy, who is married to a former dealer that happens to have been able to steal a new Camaro for personal evaluation.

Not exactly reliable if you ask me.

Some of these guys on here are much better than Uncle Joes cousins freind. #3 has been driving one for a while. I do see your point of 'Fanism' but very few people are objective in their thinking. Even in the Mags. I tend to get my info from as many different sources as I can. Including the source. But think about it. GM can't afford to push through a stinker. Chances are they're being more careful than they have in forever. And remember there really aren't very many people on here when compared to the masses. I still put it about 1 out of every 20 people I talk to even knows a Camaro is coming out. \

Other than the ones who know me of course. There is no one who knows me that doesn't know about the 5th Gen.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by nonsensez9

Magazines are an invaluable source of information. However, one cannot take a single magazine's review as the gospel. Magazine X will test a group of cars and rank them d, c, a, b while magazine Y might rank them b, c, a, d. One doesn't always know what the criteria are, making the rankings nearly useless to me - especially when fun to drive and gotta have it are factored in. The articles are where the valuable information is at. There's generally a full page write-up of each car. If it's a car I'm interested in and two out of three mags give it favorable reviews that's good enough for me. If two out of three dislike it I will probably lose interest. Take the new 370Z for example; a number of mags have commented on road noise and lack of telescoping steering. Those two items won't show on any of the performance stats but, oddly enough, are important to me and I am no longer interested in that car.

Well said, nonsensez! Agree with everything you said.

The manufacturers provide performance specifications, but of course they're not going to print in their brochure that the car has excessive road noise, or that the steering feels numb, or whatever other shortcomings it may have. It doesn't hurt to listen to various points of view before drawing your own conclusions.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by greenrail

I am by nature professionally and personally driven by Data. Solid and well documented data. That way there is a baseline for comparisons.

I don't buy into my "Uncle Joe's cousin, knows a guy, who is married to a former dealer that happens to have been able to steal a new Camaro for personal evaluation.

Not exactly reliable if you ask me.

Haha! Exactly. I work with a guy who has a Mini Cooper S, which is a really nice car, but not what any of us would consider a powerhouse. I already knew that this car is somewhere around 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, but just to make conversation with the guy, I asked him how fast his car was. "It does 0-60 in the blink of an eye!," were his exact words. I actually got the feeling that the guy thought his car was the fastest in the parking lot, so I didn't burst his bubble. He really does need to read the magazines however...

[1fastdog]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Can I ask you one question? What makes you say that car magazines "rarely use drivers with known skill levels?" And after you give me your informed answer, I'll give you a list of the drivers used by each magazine and we can debate their credentials...

When driver names are mentioned I have zero problems with magazines and their reviews.

I have issues with G-Meter ratings for 1/4 mile times. Perhaps I'm not reading the mags enough to have seen numerous articles done at bona-fide road courses. I tend to feel pro drivers being asked to assit in reviews is the exception and not the rule. When mags use a known and declared shoe, I would call it a good thing.

I have some concern when several cars are pitted against each other in a "which is best scenario" and the winner is chosen by virtue of one car having a backseat rather than it being a 2 seater only model... A test is not required if the backseat is the magazine's real determining factor... no test was really necessary or required, just eyes and an ability to count seats...

Slalom numers are as useful as you wish, but knowing an identified AutoX driver was consistantly running that kind of excercise would be of more substantive use for someone who intends to AutoX a car. Slalom numbers are fine enough... better if surface temps are included, acknowledgement that the same slalom and same conditions were used every time, ...that would help quantify and allow one result to be compared to another.

I have yet to see any of the major mainstream auto mags describe under what atmospheric conditions they did the 0-60 or 1/4 mile tests. I don't recall any or they perform were at a bona-fide dragstrip. Is there a rollout or a dead stop timing? Is timing via a G-meter device which is stuck to the dash or windsheild how results were acheived, or were actual timing lights and an actual trap zone the device one can expect to have given the results of the tests?

The more info, the better the info. The more told about the conditions the tests were performed under, the more reliance you can give the results.

"Modern Mustangs and Fast Fords" magazine does get my tip of the hat for their methods of 1/4 mile testing. 1/4 mile is an important scenario for their readership. My respect for doing it up right for their subscribers.

They use Evan J. Smith as the mainstay shoe and he is a known quantity in his abilities to give every car they test his best shot. He's a talented shoe when it comes to driving a street car on a drag strip. Believe me, I'm not what anyone could confuse as a Ford guy. I know a lot about drag racing, but it isn't a sport I have any personal interest in for what I find important in a car. I'm very much a road course person. Used to race some myself, and part of my work involves interfacing with teams that race vehicles that the company I work for makes. Drag racing has my respect as I do know what is involved and it does punish the smallest mistake and doesn't allow any time to regain your composure.

I lose no sleep whatsoever when it comes to what people choose to rely on for "internet racing". If someone relies on the same folks that test toaster and microwaves to base their buying choices, nothing I can say will change that, nor should it.

If folks pull the trigger becuase MT, or C&D, or Automobile is their bible? I'm still sleeping like a baby.

Unless you own a race team, how a car perfoms with someone else at the wheel is trult of limited, or of little value. You can get a feel for potential, but precious little else.

I have seen many instances where an underdog driver still finds a way to lose in an overdog car. The reverse is also a pretty reliable rule as well.

Put an overdog shoe in an overdog car and it's a done deal unless racing luck rears it's head.

Thus is the real reason a race can be interesting to watch. If it was about specs and test results, why bother? Fortunately races are settled on a case by case basis. Real world results count. G-Tech and other such device's resuts are not the end all and be all.

[DDustiNN]

Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS

My problem as of late with the internet and message boards is all the opinionated "mine is better than yours" crap. Someone will make a post "Do you like, listen to, watch, etc., etc. ?" There are things in life I don't care for. For example I've never liked the band AC/DC. If there is a thread about AC/DC I don't open OR POST IN IT because let's face it those that do like them really don't give a **** what my OPINION is of them. But when the haters do post they can't just simply say "I don't like them," no they have to include veiled insults like somehow their OPINION is the most valid one. And of course they also can't just post once, they got to keep coming back again and again beating the dead horse. You don't like it we got it!!!! Take the latest Danica Patrick thread for a good example. Is no one else entitled to have their own OPINION!?!?!?!?!?! I sorry but I find it rather immature. Can't we all just get along?

I just have to say that this is one of the best posts I've ever read.

People like this really crack me up. For example, take the PS3 vs. 360 war... go to a PS3 board, and you will see all kinds of 360 owners bashing it, claiming it sucks, and telling everyone how it ate their babies, etc. But I've concluded that it's immaturity + jealousy. This is because if they really preferred theirs, why would they even waste time reading up on the other? I am fortunate enough to be able to afford and own both, and while I do prefer the PS3, it has never even crossed my mind to go to a 360 board and tell everyone that it sucks and it exploded my refrigerator. It's just a waste of time.

Enough ranting, and now to my point. This is one of the reasons I love this forum. If someone owns a Mustang and proudly displays it in their sig or anywhere, nobody goes "OMG BOOOOO MUSTANG YOU ARE TEH RETARDZ!!!!11" or anything like that. In fact, in my years of reading on this site, I've seen both compliments and complaints regarding all kinds of cars, including Mustangs, Challengers, and even the Camaro.

So I guess thanks to all of you for actually being mature internet users.

The end.