Shno's House of Z

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I have to hand it them because if Chevy produced a Camaro that had the same stats for $40K it would be in my garage right now, and I have the cash right now ready to go whenever they do!

Well...they've got the SS, and GMPP-authorized Pedders/Pfadt equipment...I guarantee that combo will run circles around a Boss Mustang...even with the 'red key of power'.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Well...they've got the SS, and GMPP-authorized Pedders/Pfadt equipment...I guarantee that combo will run circles around a Boss Mustang...even with the 'red key of power'.

I prefer a factory car.
It would not match the stats of the Boss. Skidpad yes other stats no. Hence the need for a Z28!

[GrnMchin]

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I prefer a factory car.
It would not match the stats of the Boss. Skidpad yes other stats no. Hence the need for a Z28!

No? I contest that it would do better. It's just that no magazine has ever put an SS with just a good suspension system through their courses, so I can't quantify that statement.

This is one of the biggest reasons I wish they had put the Z28 name on the ZL1...I don't think they NEED another flavor of Camaro in the lineup. Everything except the raw, stripped racer is already covered...

[GrnMchin]

The ZL1 will never hold up to a full race being SC w/ out more mods. The law of heat will always prevail. The boss at a base of 41+ vs 50+ I could mod the boss to be a Camaro killer. Your SS is moded and I'M sure is a capable car, post the # please. If I was a full time racer I would buy a 03-04 ZO6 strip the piss out of it yank the motor an build it to race and smoke your SS what the point??????????????????? P.S all for less then 35k
The Boss was built to race w/ a warranty for the guys like me who want to have fun, but also drive a car with out having to mod it. The ZL1 is not and never will be a RR car, but will not stop people from trying..

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

The ZL1 is not and never will be a RR car, but will not stop people from trying..

The ZL1 was built for handling as part of it's core purpose from the get-go. Supercharger or not, it will shine.

I'm not talking about professional...LeMans - grade racing, now...I hope you realize. No factory car, not even a C6 Z06 could stand up to that without being built specifically for it...

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The ZL1 was built for handling as part of it's core purpose from the get-go. Supercharger or not, it will shine.

I'm not talking about professional...LeMans - grade racing, now...I hope you realize. No factory car, not even a C6 Z06 could stand up to that without being built specifically for it...

I do get that, but the ZL1 will carry other baggage w/ it that will make the Mag ride a little less effective the it could be. I hope the ZL1 does well, but the SC will hold it back more then most people think , because of heat build up over time (in RR terms). And yes a LaMans car is a completely different then a stk average joe car built for the track. Just don't be so quick to think that the Boss is all hype (sounds like Kool Aid talk). Like I said it is a track car that can perform w/ out mod's for the average joe at a fair price w/ warranty. A.K.A th GS vette is to the average joe in the Vette world.

The ZL1 would have to put up Vette like # to beat the Boss and I just don't see them doing that again. (Having a less costly car put up better #) Time will tell and just for the record I think it would be cool to shake up the Vette world again.

[Number 3]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, finally back to some good discussion in the House of Z.

First, you are assuming (bad word you know, ass/u/me) that IF and I mean Capital I, Capital F GM were to build "a" Z28 (everyone keeps saying "the" Z28 as if it were real and about to be announced - maybe it is, maybe it isn't), but I digress, lets assume GM does decide to build a Z28, why do you believe the natural solution is to "Beat the Boss"?

GM will offer the ZL1 which at a minimum will beat the GT500 and may even toss it in the weeds. Chassis alone will be a big advantage for the Camaro with all that power. But does Ford intend that the Boss is a better car for $10,000 less? No or at least they aren't saying so because there is still a need and place for the GT500 (no Corvette, cough, cough).

But right now, as I understand it, YOU can't go buy a Boss. It's a limited production car. So if you are GM do you go spend money to simply be better than a 4,000 or so unit limited edition car that today is sold out? Not buying or selling, just asking. I believe the Boss volumes will be less than the GT500, but I may be incorrect on that.

As for "the key", my opinion here, it's a gimick. If it is customer selectable, you can't get around it for CAFE or Emisions. It's like an ECO button. GM does this as well. It gives the customer access to a calibration that may not satisfy all customers in some driving conditions. But if you want max FE, you can hit that button for a calibration more focussed on FE. Same with "the key". It gives the customer access to a calibration that may be a bit better for the track and a bit worse for driving around town. But the customer can choose when to apply it and when not to. So it's not a lot different than putting your L99 into sport mode. That gives you a more aggressive shift pattern than what you might otherwise want for dailey driving. A cool gimick, don't get me wrong. But still a gimick IMO.

And yes, GM offers a car that puts the Boss on the trailer. It just costs more than the $40,000 you seem willing, no eager, to part with.

But for me it is exactly this type of conversation that is part of what makes this web site and this industry so interesting and satisfying. There really is no right answer. No customer or potential customer is wrong. It just might not be practicle for an OEM to satisfy every customer want fully.

So let's explore further.

GM can not likely add HP to the LS3 or L99. If they could have they would have already in the Corvette. The performance exhaust in the Corvette buys you an extra 6 HP, but at the expense of the 2 stage exhaust. This will be coming in the ZL1, but would you pay the $$ on an SS for 6 HP? So to give you a "tweener HP" you only have the LS7 to work with. And as we know and have discussed at length, this is a hand built engine costing MUCH more than the LSA going in the ZL1. So would you pay the same money for an LS7 car with 50 less HP and a far less sophisticated chassis? The car would likely perform quite well and with the slightly reduced weight from not having the SC, it might give the ZL1 a run..............but for the same money. And now you have invested money in two cars that do the same thing.

Chassis performance. GM has already announced the FE4 upgrades coming in 2012:

FE4 suspension enhances performance

The new FE4 suspension debuts as a performance improvement for the Camaro SS coupe in 2012, focusing on more refined handling.

"Our objective was to create a more precise sport suspension for the SS coupe, with greater road-holding capability," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "We applied lessons learned from extensive track testing to better refine the suspension geometry for flatter cornering, a more neutral balance during hard turns, and minimized understeer at the limit."

Elements of the FE4 package include:

•Retuned front and rear dampers
•New solid front (23 mm) and rear (24 mm) stabilizer bars
•Twenty-inch aluminum wheels and P245/45R20 front/P275/40R20 rear tires (SS).


More than just new components, the new FE4 performance suspension incorporates learning from the ongoing development of the high-performance Camaro ZL1. In particular, the suspension geometry has been adjusted, including reshaped stabilizer bars that are repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. This results in more effective body control and more precise response in performance driving.

And there is likely more that can be gained here as well. As Fbodfather often says, "We're not done yet". So is this chassis upgrade Z28 worthy? Or do you still need more?

You won't get a "light weight" Camaro. Simply put the Mustang is a smaller car and weighs less. Heck, the Mustang could probably lose 100 or 200 pounds. It's based on an old architecture. And add an IRS to the Mustang and suddenly that weight difference is a bit less obvious between the two cars.

And as I've posted, only the Gen 1 Z28 meant very much. The Gen 2 through 4 cars to me were slight chassis upgrades (FE4 anyone ??) and an appearance package. Might have been an axle ratio, but I don't even recall better brakes being available on those Z28s. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I never really saw a big difference in the later year cars with the Z28 badge. If I recall correctly, the Gen 4 Z28 required the SS package to get the extra 15 HP.

So be not discouraged, what you know to be true today can change in an instant. I know GM brass including Mark Reuss reads this site from time to time. And hopefully, although not everyone believes this, GM does listen to it's customers.

So continue the discussion and lets see where we end up.

[JusticePete]

I already know the answer to this debate. Our built Mustang and Camaro are the equivalents of the factory BOSS and ZL1. They run withing a breath of each other. The Camaro whispers in your ear every thing that is happening on the track. The Mustang kicks you in the head screaming we are going sideways. The Mustang is a hoot to toss around. The Camaro my choice for driving unless it is a point and shoot day.

What we have are the Vette, the Mustang and Camaro in ascending size. Call the Mustang a tweener landing between the GM book ends. Will a Mustang ever compare to a ZR1? I think we all know the answer to that question. The real question is do you prefer the Fords blue oval to the Chevrolet bow tie?

[2cnd chance]

Where do i begin? I'll comment in bits and pieces.
First your welcome! And yes beating the Boss is what the Z28's job is! And the Boss selling out so fast doesn't scream there's a hole in the muscle/pony car offerings? ($40K+ performance offering).
I don't know for sure what the ZL1 will sell for but guessing $50K+ which is more than I and Im sure others are willing spend. I'll stop here and add more later because I'm typing on my iPhone and it's annoying. I do enjoy these conversations, thanks Number 3.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Will a Mustang ever compare to a ZR1? I think we all know the answer to that question. The real question is do you prefer the Fords blue oval to the Chevrolet bow tie?

for me!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

for me!

[2cnd chance]

Ok so I build my factory SS with the FE4 suspension, will it pull close to 1.0 G?
Can I upgrade the brakes to 6 piston fronts?
Can I opt for the HD rearend and axles?
Can I get the internals on the LS3 forged and extend the RPMs to 7,500 redline?

All factory mind you.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Ok so I build my factory SS with the FE4 suspension, will it pull close to 1.0 G?
Can I upgrade the brakes to 6 piston fronts?
Can I opt for the HD rearend and axles?
Can I get the internals on the LS3 forged and extend the RPMs to 7,500 redline?

All factory mind you.

1G, hmmm. Rumor has it they are working with Goodyear for dedicated ZL1 tires. I know we do it fully Pedderised so my answer would be yes.

The CTS-V / ZL1 brakes are six piston from the factory. Yes.

HD drive-line is from the factory with the ZL1 from what they have announced. Yes.

Can I get the internals on the LS3 forged and extend the RPMs to 7,500 redline? Where is #3 when we need him.