Do I really need sway bars?

[lightner75]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

Inuyashas_Brother, take a look at a video we did a while ago, in regards to your exact quest for knowledge! This video was a procedure we went through to dial in the correct sway bar rates for the Camaro chassis. As you can see, sway bars are what will control the understeer/oversteer balance most effectively. This video is pretty straight forward to illustrate the example you are looking for, it is a simple 200ft skidpad,and involves steady-state cornering where no transitional forces are acting on the car. Its a pretty cool test to see how to change balance towards something more performance oreinted! Check it out

so my ? is if your going to change sways then you should change both front and rear and not waste your time with just doing the rear balance bar?

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by lightner75

so my ? is if your going to change sways then you should change both front and rear and not waste your time with just doing the rear balance bar?

It is one of those better/best situations. The rear bar upgrade will be an improvement over stock and is probably all you need for a basic bolt on car that isn't going to be taken to the track. For a more extensively modified car that might or definitely will see some track use then the set is the way to go. That being said, 95+% of our sway bar orders are for the front and rear set.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by lightner75

so my ? is if your going to change sways then you should change both front and rear and not waste your time with just doing the rear balance bar?

It depends on what you are trying to change. Which brings us to the question, what are your goals for your Camaro?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Apex Chase

It is one of those better/best situations. The rear bar upgrade will be an improvement over stock and is probably all you need for a basic bolt on car that isn't going to be taken to the track. For a more extensively modified car that might or definitely will see some track use then the set is the way to go. That being said, 95+% of our sway bar orders are for the front and rear set.

This is spot on, and let me show an illustration to maybe paint a clearer picture. Take a look at hte charts below. What is going to affect the understeer/oversteer is the roll rate from front to rear.

With the balance bar, it has a rate that is engineered into it to match the OEM front bar, and provide the optimized balance that removes the inherent understeer.

With the sport bars, you get that very same balance ratio front to rear, but you get more roll reduction OVERALL. So with the sport bars, the car as a whole has much less sway in it, AND it has the optimized balance, and it has adjustable balance with the rear adjustable bar.

Let me know if this helps:

[lightner75]

yes that helps alot..Thanks for the chart...For my driving style and conditions the rear balance bar is exactly what i want....

i'm saving my pennies in between fill ups and will contact you apex chase when i'm ready to pull the plug on this..

thanks for the replys and help..

[Jay_LHD3]

Originally Posted by lightner75

yes that helps alot..Thanks for the chart...For my driving style and conditions the rear balance bar is exactly what i want....

i'm saving my pennies in between fill ups and will contact you apex chase when i'm ready to pull the plug on this..

thanks for the replys and help..

I'm doing the same thing. I plan on picking up a rear balance bar later this year. I thought about doing the set, but then you have to do end links before your front factory end links get kinked up and... ...this stuff gets expensive quick!!

Currently I have springs only and love the difference they make.

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by lightner75

yes that helps alot..Thanks for the chart...For my driving style and conditions the rear balance bar is exactly what i want....

i'm saving my pennies in between fill ups and will contact you apex chase when i'm ready to pull the plug on this..

thanks for the replys and help..

No problem. I look forward to hearing from you.

[toilets]

Now what in the blazes is Sub frame inserts and radius inserts?? Sorry for my stupidity but I thought I had everything I need (sways, endlinks, differential and rear cradle bushings, springs).. I do my first road course in July so are you saying to help my corner speed and handling even furhter, these sub frame bushes and radius inserts are a must?

[2quick]

not an must be they really will help.

[kook]

The Pedders XA + package. Second to none.

[BMR guy]

Everybody above seems to be going back and forth on what is most important to do first. For optimal results, BMR recommends that you mod in this order:

1: Cradle (subframe) Insert bushings - every component in your rear drivetrain and suspension mounts to the rear cradle yet the cradle is mounted to the body with high deflection rubber bushings. Reducing this movement with cradle bushing inserts will allow the suspension to do its job more efficiently.


2: Sway bars - Despite what some believe, there is no other single suspension mod that will give you as much seat-of-the-pants improvement then a good set of sway bars. If there is any doubt just create a thread titled "Do bigger sway bars make a difference?" and see what you get. BMR sway bars are fully adjustable front and rear and do not compromise ride quality in any way. Our base rates designed into the sway bars were specifically calculated to neutralize understeer in this platform and the user has 3 rate choices to choose from. This is simply a no-brainer mod for this 3800 pound car.



3: Lowering springs - Unless you are only after cosmetic mods, we recommend lowering springs as the third mod, after the base is set and the body roll is neutralized. The lower center of gravity combined with slightly stiffer spring rates really compliments a set of sway bars.


There are other products in addition that can be recommended beyond these mods however, based on your goals, these would be our recommendations...

[JusticePete]

It all starts with the foundational bushes on a 5th Gen. Sub-frame and radius inserts or full bushes are the lowest hanging fruit available. Everything else you add to your 5th Gen will work better when the foundation has been set.

Rear Sub-Frame Forward Bush / Bolt Area


Rear Sub-Frame Rear Bush / Bolt / Locating Post


The large bush in the right of these two pictures have a ferule that fits over the Locating Post. This not only centers the sub-frame, but anchors it much as a weld would to the monocoque. The movement in the rear sub-frame is relative to the voids in the the OEM rubber bushes. If the voids are filled with urethane inserts or the OE bushes replaced with higher durometer full urethane, movement of the rear sub-frame is virtually eliminated.

The front sub-frame mounts with six bolts and two locating pins. There are no rubber bushes. The front sub-frame connects well forward and well behind the front 'axle' for strength and stability. As you could see in the frontal impact video the engine was moving backwards from the impact (at roughly 14 seconds), but the front sub-frame remained well located.

When you are considering the modifications you choose to make to your Camaro, we strongly suggest you take a holistic approach and discuss the entire range of modifications with your Pedders Suspension Specialist. They can guide you through the selection process to make certain that each modification compliments all the others to create the best possible custom Camaro for your personal use.

There is a noticeable rear end step out in turns while applying power or brakes and dealing with bumps in the 5th Gen. This is due to the voids in the OEM Sub-frame bushes. It is not unique to the Camaro. It is typical of IRS systems installed with rubber bushes to isolate the passenger area from road noise. The larger and stickier your rear tires the more pronounced the sub-frame movement becomes. The same is true with increased RWHP.



The Camaro features much larger sub-frame bushes than the G8. These were improved to handle the higher loads created by larger rubber and high RWHP found in the Camaro. While they are an improvement, we do not feel they are stable enough for the way we drive a Camaro so we designed two solutions.



Pedders EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts are good up to 500 RWHP. The inserts fill the OEM voids in the rubber sub-frame bushes from both the top and bottom. The control surfaces are dramatically increased. Since the OEM bushes remain in place, this is more than just a great upgrade. It is relatively easy to install the EP1200. These eight pieces transform your Camaro and are probably the single biggest bang for the buck modification you can make.



For those taking the Camaro beyond 500 RWHP, drag racers and hard core corner lovers the best solution will be Pedders EP1201 full urethane Sub-Frame Bushes. With these robust bushes installed and well over 500 RWHP your Camaro will launch cleanly and track true under load. In these photos you can almost feel the improvement in performance. For ease of assembly there is a 3/4" OEM ferule holes through which a 14mm bolt is passed. Those sloppy OEM ferules are replaced with Pedders and holes suited to the 14mm bolts used to secure them. This change means there is no possible movement in the assembly under any load that doesn't bend or shear a sub-frame bolt. The increase in control surface is nothing short of MASSIVE. Your rear sub-frame will now follow your Camaro and not attempt to steer your Camaro. Switch backs are tamed. Drag launches are harder and crisper with a more efficient transfer of power.



For ultimate in IRS control Pedders has developed the EP1201HD. Racers use Delrin bushes machined from stock. These are hard plastic suitable ONLY to a race car. They require frequent replacement. Pedders EP1201HD is a urethane of high dura that when captured by the Camaro sheet metal performs like Delrin, but has the durability of all Pedders urethane products.These bushes do transmit more road noise than the EP1200 inserts or the EP1201 full bushes. In the Pedders USA, LLC Camaro we barely notice a difference because the aggressive tires we run. The EP1201HD is not a typical Pedders bit. It is designed for ONLY the most dedicated enthusiasts. In the video, you will see that there is NO visible sub-frame movement, even with a 3 2 downshift with wide open throttle.



GM redesigned the radius arm on the ZETA II Camaro. It uses a large hydraulically damped bush on one end and a ball joint on the other. The arm is more linear to deliver improved steering feel. Drivers that are tuned into their Camaro will notice slight softness in steering feel, the brake pedal and perhaps describe it as isolated. Pedders started early on and worked on a full urethane bush for a very special project with GM – the 2010 Camaro GS Race Car Concept shown at SEMA 2010. This video walks you through the OE and Pedders bushes with Jason Debler from http://www.camaroz28.com/



Replacing the hydraulically damped OEM radius rod bushes will help with steering and pedal feel. While the NVH properties are excellent, they are too soft for performance driving in our opinion. Pedders offers three solutions for this. The first option is a direct replacement street-friendly urethane insert for the OEM rubber bit. The firmer urethane insert removes some of the compliance in the bush improving brake pedal and steering feel. Using an EP6578 is as simple as removing two bolts, removing the soft OEM rubber insert, installing the Pedders urethane and bolting it back together. You may wonder if such a small part can make a difference in such a large automobile. You will be pleasantly surprised on their first test drive.



The full urethane bush replacement is Pedders EP6577 Camaro Urethane Steel Jacketed Radius Rod Bush. This is one robust bush with holes and voids designed to make our street friendly urethane mimic the NVH characteristics of the OEM bush with the performance of a urethane bush. If you track your car, the EP6577 will be the most durable solution. The inserts work to reduce motion, but the basic issue of the OEM bush remains -- it is hydraulically damped and can potentially fail on track. Pedders EP6577 is virtually indestructible on or off the track.



The third is an EP6579 full face Camaro Front Extreme Radius Rod Bush Insert replacing the soft OEM rubber insert with a very high durometer piece. The combination of bonded rubber ferrule steel jacketed bush with a full face high durometer urethane insert is outstanding. This solution is extremely firm and may lead to premature wear in the tie rod ends or the steering rack. This is the solution we have installed on the Pedders USA Camaro because we prefer the extra control. This is a hardcore option for the most demanding driver.



It all starts with the foundation. I know. I sound like a broken record

[Inuyashas_Brother]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Maybe I misunderstood your post. Can I ask a few questions to gain clarity?

What is it you are not satisfied with as far as the handling of your Camaro?

As I mentioned in my first post, I don’t want to race or auto-x, but I feel the car wobbles too much and I have little confidence taking turns at any speed! My hope is that lowering springs would give me a firmer ride and the lower center of gravity would help me through the turns.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Rich is 100% correct. Start your 5th Gen mods with the foundational elements.

Sub-frame bushes or inserts
Radius Bushes or inserts

I sent an email to one of the premier shops in the Washington DC area asking how much installing those bushes would cost, and they advised me against installing them saying unless I track the car, I wouldn't notice the difference.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Inuyashas_Brother

As I mentioned in my first post, I don’t want to race or auto-x, but I feel the car wobbles too much and I have little confidence taking turns at any speed! My hope is that lowering springs would give me a firmer ride and the lower center of gravity would help me through the turns.



I sent an email to one of the premier shops in the Washington DC area asking how much installing those bushes would cost, and they advised me against installing them saying unless I track the car, I wouldn't notice the difference.

Any shop that tells you you won't notice the difference with sub-frame and radius bush inserts is a shop I would run away from. There is a reason GM has modified the sub-frame bushes from the factory starting in January 2011 production. The rear end step out is what is creating your lack of confidence in the turns. Even the modifies GM bush still leaves a lot on the table.

pre-January build 5th Gens use these.



January 2011 on need to trim the thin fingers.



The same is true with our OE hydraulic radius bushes.



There is a simple way to resolve your doubt. Purchase and install a Pedders Street I set of inserts. Get your car aligned. If you don't have more confidence in the turns, I'll personally refund your cost of the parts. Inclucing shipping Here are a couple of GREAT shops that will install your Pedders bits and get your alignment spot on right.

Lucky Dog Garage LLC
2480 Route 97 # 1
Glenwood, MD 21738-9718
(410) 489-0230

Mizelle Front End & Frame Services
118 West 25th Street
Norfolk, VA 23517-1410
(757) 627-4745

FYI, we have done thiss before so I am VERY confident that you will be pleased with the result.

Originally Posted by JProberts

I had the rear sub-frame inserts installed yesterday by TandT and Tim and crew did a stand-up job at a reasonable price again and had my car ready for me after I played a round of golf....note to all golfers - do not "F" with P.B. Dye course unless you are man enough to take a beating and not quit golf!!!

Back to the car, Pete was correct in that the sub-frame inserts made a huge difference in the cars handling and feel over the rough roads. The rear of the car feels more like the front of the car now, no rear end step out on the nasty bumps on the twisties in Rock creek park on the way to work. Car stayed planted instead of hopping too one side or the other when taking those curves today.

Had a chance to get on it on the highway a bit on the way home from TandT and of course some douche bag on acell phone glids across the lanes right in front of me and I had to break hard and switch lanes real quick and it was quite surprising how good the car felt during hard breaking, and when I switched lanes the car moved like it was on rails! No lean either way and the car just seems so much more responsive now, especially the rear end after the sub fram inserts...it was improved with just the front sway bar but the handling and ride is 10x better after the sub-frame inserts.

To sum it up the Pedders rear sub-frame inserts, front sway bar and end links got my car to where I wanted it to be: improved handling, less roll or lean on highways and on twisties, more responsive and planted during spirited driving on streets and better ride quality on bumpy roads. At this point I don't really feel like the car needs anything else to improve the suspension for my driving desires.

Yeah I could add the rear sway also but what will that add to my car for daily driving needs? Now if Pete decides to send me the rear sway bar and end links for free I wouldn't turn it down but in all honesty I can say that the set-up I have now got me what I wanted and I am 100% satisfied.

Thanks Pete for taking the time and putting forth the efforts to prove the points that you made about your products. Everything you suggested seems right on point so far and I cannot argue with the results of adding the front sway bar only and the rear sub-frame inserts.

Thanks JP

If you have time, here is the complete thread. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ackage+pedders