Do I really need sway bars?

[mws444]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

When you talk to your son, tell him everyone at Camaro5 says THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY!

God Bless all of our Servicemen and Women!:flag1:

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Trackspec Motorsports

Heres my 2 cents on this...from car guy to car guy, not vendor on camaro5 to car guy.

It sounds like the OP is looking for a great bang for the buck mod that will inspire much more confidence in the handling of his driver. From taking turns to emergency manuevers, he wants the assurance that the car will do what he wants it to, when he wants it to. And it also sounds like he wants to limit his modding to just a couple items since he is not running the car at an HPDE or pushing 400 horse. And lets not forget the original question..."Do i really need sway bars?" since we seemed to have gotten away from that...

During Camaro5festII, I was fortunate enough to be part of the Pfadt Track attack instructor crew and was given the opportunity to ride back to back to back in several 2010's with various levels of suspension mods from stone stock to stage 5's and also everything inbetween....and what an experience it was to truly prove out each level directly after one another. But each time i got into the car and spoke to the driver, one of the first things i asked them was what suspension mods were done to the car. Most were springs and sways or better, but when the driver of car #1 told me it was stock, I cringed and held on to dear life because i knew it was going to be a handful. I think we even scraped the side view mirrors on the road turning in off the highspeed straight.

The next car i got into, call it car#2, was a pfadt stage 2 car (springs and sways package). Beleive me when i tell you this, it was a completely different car, no BS. Turn in was crisp and clean, body roll was minimal, and the car felt light years tighter than the stock camaro i just got out of. I even asked the driver if he had sub bushings in since the suspension felt very "clean" and he said, "no, not yet, but its on the list." The driver was extremely new and it was their first time on a real roadcourse but regardless of being green to HPDE's, by the 3rd lap, he was really starting to hang this car out and pick up speed passing others. By reducing body roll, balancing the car, and tightening up the response, the springs and sways package inspired confidence in his driving and the driver knew that the car would do what he wanted it to, unlike a stock set up.

I dont disagree with JusticePaul at all with suggesting the bushings. I think they serve their purpose and are a great basic upgrade to help improve handling and rear step in every camaro. But if I had to ride with a leadfooted new driver on a highspeed roadcourse and had a choice of either a springs and sways package vs a sub/diff bushed car, I (and my blood pressure ) would take the car with the springs/sways package any day of the week. And that thought can be applied to spirited canyon carving. I hope this puts it into perspective for whatever the OP's goals may be.

So with that all being said, to the OP, YES, you need sway bars, but thats not all you need.

Just a real world experience.

John

Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011

My Suspension mods so far are , eibach swaybars, 29mm f/r, made car more neutral, reduced understeer, did not reduce wallowing feel. BMR trailing arm, reduced wheel hop, reduced understeer some more, firmed up rear a bit made it more predictable even on wet, LSR billet toe link arms, stiffened up rear even more , both trailing arms and toe link arms made the rear very stable for everyday or spirited street driving, now highly confident , athletic rear end feel still not enough for me ( I literally challenge Evos, Lotus exiges and S2000 around corners and twistees) but would be enough for you. Pfadt strut brace, I really didn't want to drill but made a huge difference in extreme maneuvers a must for me may not be a must for you, not needed in your case. Springs and struts still stock on my car your v6 may have different spring rates.The front sway bar is garbage way too small for my L99 3900lbs and a highly contributes to front end understeer, and maybe even for your car. I don't believe in the rear balance bar since the front end slop also needs to be addressed as well, Steering rack bushing from BMR or Pedders is also a must,( didn't think it would make a difference but it did big time, made my steering feel more stable and firm). Now my front end control arms are the weak link and I am now replacing my front control arm bushings. After my few suspension mods the verdict is this rear cradle bushing upgrade are not needed for non extreme drivers my rear end now feels very planted, however the rear end cradle bushings are horrible and I would recommend them upgraded anyway even with inserts, in my case I have to do cradle bushing and was even considering Pfadts solid units for extreme ability. I've spent about $1300 so far on all my suspension mods so far about $1000 without the Pfadt strut brace and my car now handles very well for a guy like you. So for you I would say Sways F/R endlinks and BMR rear LC arm reinforcement piece, rear trailing arm and toelink arm,( I personally like Pfadts trailing arm and toelink arm best, perfect blend of light weight and strength, my BMR trailing arm is very heavyduty but a little too heavy for best suspension performance bound rebound wise), BMR or Pedders steering rack bushing, radius rod bushing, a must for the front end in my book, cradle bushings because the stock stuff is crap, literally feels like marsh mellows, also the way the rear cradle moves around I think it would lead to premature differential and driveshaft damage in the future. (((SWAY BARS AND SPRINGS ALONE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM AND CORNERING INSTABILITY WILL STILL BE AN ISSUE SLOPPY FACTORY BUSHINGS ARE THE MAIN REASON THIS CAR WALLOWS LIKE A PIG)))

Originally Posted by Trackspec Motorsports

Keep in mind, the OP's first concern was that sway bars do little to nothing to add to performance from his first post. "...and a sway bar would add little to no benefit." I was just trying to put it in perspective for him aside from everything else that has been stated.

No pissing contest here, if you reread my post, i agreed with Justice but at the same time, addressed the OP's original concern of the sway bar peice. I think everyone is making correct points, just in different directions since the OP's concern is a very subjective one with several different solutions for different issues.

Hope everyone is enjoying their holiday weekend

John

You guys make some excellent points. John, your description is extremely accurate with how Pfadt came up with the sway bar sizes and rates. If you watch the video we posted on how sway bars eliminate understeer, you can imagine the procedure we used to dial in those sizes untill we reached this performance goal:

"Turn in was crisp and clean, body roll was minimal, and the car felt light years tighter than the stock camaro i just got out of."

This is exactly what you get with Pfadt sway bars, and what you will find our customers attest to! Put quite simply, as GM factory race car driver Johnny O'Connell said about suspension upgrades : "When we improve vehicles, it doesn't mean you have to be a race car driver to use it effectively, it actually means the opposite; it makes the car easier to drive." This is exactly what we aim for with ALL upgrades, not just sway bars.

Derrick, you make some great points with John, in that the upgrade process is obviously not straightforward for everyone. It is a TOTAL EQUATION, that consists of multiple parts, which is the exact determination we came to, and hence, all of the upgrades that our company designed to help.

And as both of you point out to the OP's actual question, sway bars are certainly part of that performance equation

|Blair

[JusticePete]

...when the driver of car #1 told me it was stock, I cringed and held on to dear life because i knew it was going to be a handful.

Really? A handful? That statement does not track with Pedders testing of the 5th Gen from base models to built models and everything in between. Let's just take a look at the results from the Camaro5 Pedders / Lingenfelter Autocross.

Rob Anderson FTD at the Camaro5 Autocross 57
Danny Popp FTD at the Camaro5 Autocross 51

Rob Anderson -- Rental V6 Auto
Danny Popp -- Prepared V8 Manual

Rob Anderson -- Video Game Trained
Danny Popp -- 20 Year SCCA Veteran, 7 Time National Champion

Manual = 1 second
SS brakes = 1 second

That closes the gap from 6 seconds down to 4 seconds.

The gap is reduced by another second, at a bare minimum, by drivers. After 20 years Danny is easily 1 second faster. The rental car Camaro 6 cylinder is now only 3 seconds behind a Camaro with a fully built suspension. That three seconds or a bit less tracks with all the testing work that Pedders has done.

The 5th Gen Camaro is an excellent car off the showroom floor from the base model on up. It is the most structurally sound monocoque ever found in a Muscle Car. The IRS is equally to any production IRS founds at any price point. The Virtual Pivot front suspension is similar to the designs found on BMW and Mercedes motorcars. You can drive the wheels off a 5th Gen bone stock.

That is not to say it cannot be improved upon. GM made a running change to the weakest link in the 5th Gen chassis starting in January. They partially filled some of the voids in the sub-frame bushes. No ask yourself why would GM make a running change to the sub-frame bushes as opposed to the sway bars? It would have been easier and cheaper to change the size and ratio of the sway bars. GM could have made a big deal out of the sway bars in their marketing. Beating you chest about our new improved sub-frame bushes is no where as sexy, but it was a critically important change. They made the change because the foundation of the vehicle is more important than the sway bars. They made the change to address the weakest link.

For many years the formula to improve handling was really simple. Add sway bar. That is no longer the case. As suspensions have become more complex with more sophisticated engineering suspension upgrades have become more refined. Aftermarket suspension tuning on the 5th Gen Camaro starts with radius and sub-frame bush upgrades.

That is exactly why GM started the refinement of the production 5th Gen with a revised Original Equipment set of sub-frame bushes. Where do you think you should start?

[PfadtRacing]

Just as a correction, GM already annouced they changed the sway bars size and geometry on SS models to reduce the understeer handling characteristics. Thanks TMoneySS.

Originally Posted by TMoneySS

Originally Posted by GM

FE4 suspension enhances performance

The new FE4 suspension debuts as a performance improvement for the Camaro SS coupe in 2012, focusing on more refined handling.

“Our objective was to create a more precise sport suspension for the SS coupe, with greater road-holding capability,” said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. ”We applied lessons learned from extensive track testing to better refine the suspension geometry for flatter cornering, a more neutral balance during hard turns, and minimized understeer at the limit.”


Elements of the FE4 package include:

• Retuned front and rear dampers
• New solid front (23 mm) and rear (24 mm) stabilizer bars
• Twenty-inch aluminum wheels and P245/45R20 front/P275/40R20 rear tires (SS).

More than just new components, the new FE4 performance suspension incorporates learning from the ongoing development of the high-performance Camaro ZL1. In particular, the suspension geometry has been adjusted, including reshaped stabilizer bars that are repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. This results in more effective body control and more precise response in performance driving.

[JusticePete]

Exactly. GM is following Pedders advice from the 5th Gen Book. GM is doing exactly what Pedders has suggested in this thread and in so many others. They started with foundational stability in January of 2011 with revised sub-frame bushes. After improving the foundation they move to sway bars for the 2012.

Foundation.

Foundation.

Foundation.

I hate to keep beating the same poor horse, but the low hanging fruit on the 5th Gen Camaro is found in the foundational bushes. That means Pedders EP1200 Inserts, EP1201 Full Bushes or EP1201 HD Delrin for the Street. In the front we have the EP6578 direct replacement radius bush snubber that came out of GM's prototype development, the EP6579 that came from the same program and the EP6577 full bush which was produced specifically for the ONLY Camaro RACE CAR built in house at GM.

Foundation.

Foundation.

Foundation.

Following the radius and sub-frame bushes in order of importance would be the four toe-link bushes. There is a reason that Jay Leno's Twin Turbo Camaro delivered to Mr. Leno with Pedders sub-frame inserts and toe link bushes. They are the most critical for IRS stability. So if you want to go a bit further in the foundation use (2) packages of EP7323 bushes. These installed with sub-frame and radius bush upgrades prepare your 5th Gen for the next level which would be coils, coilovers or sway bars.

The order following the foundational upgrades is less clear. We have a preference for coil or coilovers over sway bars, but once the foundation is in place sway bars or coils or coilovers will work rather well.

[JusticePete]

Btw, the ZL1 sway bar geometry has been radically altered. The sway bar now connects to the LCA near the hub. This eliminates the need for telephone pole sized rear sway bars.



While the new LCA and sway bar setup are much improved, the place to start with ZL1 upgrades will remain the same.

Foundation.

Foundation.

Foundation.

[Cammarrah]

WOW this thread is a getting pretty dumb. Seems like all the OP wanted to know is if sway bars would benefit him and now a vendor wont stop posting about non-related things. Obviously sway bar upgrades exist for a reason, so if you disagree, move on. Its already been proven that they work, with video, and obviously GM changed them for a reason like they stated in their press release which you said they didnt. Relax guy, its not the end of the world if people want to upgrade the sway bars first. Its clear that they work really well, and so do subframe bushings.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Cammarrah

Seems like all the OP wanted to know is if sway bars would benefit him and now a vendor wont stop posting about non-related things.

Sorry top have offended you. Here is the OP.

Originally Posted by Inuyashas_Brother

A bit of background: I have installed new high performance tires and I’m planning on getting lowered springs. I enjoy spirited driving but do not plan on autocrossing. I have been trying to educate myself on the issue of understeer and how sway bars work, and from what I found it seems that understeer is only a problem if you push your car past “7/10s” which is going beyond spirited driving into autocrossing levels.

Therefore, for my driving style, it seems lowering springs, in addition to the grip from my new high performance tires, are enough to provide me the additional handling benefits, and a sway bar would add little to no benefit.

Is my analysis correct or did I miss something?

We are replying directly within the context of the OP. The answer is yes the OP did miss something. He missed building his modified suspension from the ground up. Based on the description of his driving style, the foundational bushes and his performance tires may be as far as he needs to go with his suspension modifications. If he chooses to add lowering coils and sway bars they will perform better with a more stable foundation.

Originally Posted by Cammarrah

Obviously sway bar upgrades exist for a reason, so if you disagree, move on. Its already been proven that they work, with video, and obviously GM changed them for a reason like they stated in their press release which you said they didnt.

Here is exactly what I said,"GM made a running change to the weakest link in the 5th Gen chassis starting in January. They partially filled some of the voids in the sub-frame bushes. Now ask yourself why would GM make a running change to the sub-frame bushes as opposed to the sway bars? It would have been easier and cheaper to change the size and ratio of the sway bars. GM could have made a big deal out of the sway bars in their marketing. Beating your chest about our new improved sub-frame bushes is no where as sexy, but it was a critically important change. They made the change because the foundation of the vehicle is more important than the sway bars. They made the change to address the weakest link."

I said, they addressed the foundational sub-frame bushes in January of 2011. The change in sways follows an already in production sub-frame bush change in January 2011. Taking it one step further the geometry of the ZL1 LCA and sway bar move the endlink out to the hub making it far more efficient than the current setup. The fact is, GM made the change in the sub-frame bush first for good reason. They addressed the weakest link in the 5th Gen suspension.

Pedders has a full range of bits for the 5th Gen from bushes, to bars to coils and coilovers. A client can buy any parts they see fit and in any order from Pedders or any other company. That said, we like to see our clients get the biggest bang for the buck possible. We have a large number of clients that are thrilled with only the foundational bush inserts and a Pedders spec alignment. They deliver improved stability and reduced understeer. Should a Street I client choose further upgrades, they will all perform better.

I see you are a new member of Camaro5. I am glad you are here and welcome your input. Once again, I am sorry I offended you.

[mws444]

Originally Posted by Cammarrah

WOW this thread is a getting pretty dumb. Seems like all the OP wanted to know is if sway bars would benefit him and now a vendor wont stop posting about non-related things. Obviously sway bar upgrades exist for a reason, so if you disagree, move on. Its already been proven that they work, with video, and obviously GM changed them for a reason like they stated in their press release which you said they didnt. Relax guy, its not the end of the world if people want to upgrade the sway bars first. Its clear that they work really well, and so do subframe bushings.

I dont think anyone is trying to say the Camaro does not need a sway bar upgrade. The point Pete is trying to make is without the subframe bushings you will not get the full potential out of the sways.
Now when John spoke up that the stock Camaro is a sloppy hard to handle mess, it raises more than an eye brow. The auto cross at the fest is a perfect example of a stock car turning in really good times.
I equate car modding to cooking, there are a lot of really good chicken soup recipes, but every chef will agrue theirs is the best. The vendors posting here are to say the least very passionate about cars and how to make them better. It is this very passion that leads them to bump heads sometimes. However make no mistake about it, they love cars, and making them go faster!
They are also a wealth of information! I have been talking suspension and building cars with these and others who most would crown the best in the business for over 15 years. I still feel like they have forgotten more than I will ever know, but at least I am learning!

[Cammarrah]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

[I]why would GM make a running change to the sub-frame bushes as opposed to the sway bars? It would have been easier and cheaper to change the size and ratio of the sway bars.

Really? your comment suggested they didnt make a change to the sway bars. Rear what you write. And do you know anything about production on an OEM vehicle? I do, I work in the industry. Just because a revised piece shows up sooner doesn't mean the big wigs at GM said "oh man, we have to address the subframes first and THEN sway bars." Thats not what happens in the design development process. Most likely, design revisions were slated at identical times for platform updates. Then manufacturer A has a lead time of 2 months on the sub frame bushing supply, and manufacturer B has a lead time of 8 months on the sway bars. GM then takes this and integrates it into their production schedule. They roll in the available upgrades sooner, and go online with the longer lead time item with a new platform update. No one from GM was "following Pedder's advice" from a book you wrote. I have worked directly with GM for a very long time and will tell you that the engineering directors and vehicle dynamicists do not scour the internet to look for the advice of aftermarket internet vendors.


YOu are bashing anybodies opinion that disagrees with you, specifically of trackspec's. He drove cars back to back and gave his impression and how it relates to the OP, you are arguing and trying to say his opinion isn't valid. You didnt offend me at all. You can feel free to post you opinion on what he should do...and you did....more than a couple of times. Again, just relax sir. Just drop the "hard sell" and things will be fine.

[Cammarrah]

Originally Posted by mws444

I dont think anyone is trying to say the Camaro does not need a sway bar upgrade. The point Pete is trying to make is without the subframe bushings you will not get the full potential out of the sways.
Now when John spoke up that the stock Camaro is a sloppy hard to handle mess, it raises more than an eye brow. The auto cross at the fest is a perfect example of a stock car turning in really good times.
I equate car modding to cooking, there are a lot of really good chicken soup recipes, but every chef will agrue theirs is the best. The vendors posting here are to say the least very passionate about cars and how to make them better. It is this very passion that leads them to bump heads sometimes. However make no mistake about it, they love cars, and making them go faster!
They are also a wealth of information! I have been talking suspension and building cars with these and others who most would crown the best in the business for over 15 years. I still feel like they have forgotten more than I will ever know, but at least I am learning!

I totally get it man, I do. Everyone is passionate I agree. And I also agree that you wont get the full potential out of sway bars, unless you also upgrade other components. But that can be said about ANY upgrade. NONE of these suspension upgrades that we are talking about will really reach their potential until you upgrade the tires! Honestly, from my race experience, tries are the biggest factor in any performance upgrade decision. I dont see anyone one here arguing with people opinons and saying that they need to upgrade TIRES first?

Its just not adding anything to the conversation to argue with other people. That is why we are all here, to learn, and enjoy. We all love Camaros. Just seems like some vendors wont give up untill they have the last word.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Cammarrah

YOu are bashing anybodies opinion that disagrees with you, specifically of trackspec's. He drove cars back to back and gave his impression and how it relates to the OP, you are arguing and trying to say his opinion isn't valid.

This is bashing?

Really? A handful? That statement does not track with Pedders testing of the 5th Gen from base models to built models and everything in between. Let's just take a look at the results from the Camaro5 Pedders / Lingenfelter Autocross.

I have watched as GM has consistently upped their game with suspension. They are now doing even more agressive track testing to make thier performance cars even more track ready. I know many of the GM suspension engineers and have great respect for them. They live and breath suspension excellence at GM and in thier personal cars at tracks across the country on the weekends. Because of them, GM is building the best cars they have ever built and that includes the entry level V6 found in rental car fleets.

How GM building a great Camaro becomes bashing, I don't understand. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on some things.

[mws444]

Originally Posted by Cammarrah

I totally get it man, I do. Everyone is passionate I agree. And I also agree that you wont get the full potential out of sway bars, unless you also upgrade other components. But that can be said about ANY upgrade. NONE of these suspension upgrades that we are talking about will really reach their potential until you upgrade the tires! Honestly, from my race experience, tries are the biggest factor in any performance upgrade decision. I dont see anyone one here arguing with people opinons and saying that they need to upgrade TIRES first?

Its just not adding anything to the conversation to argue with other people. That is why we are all here, to learn, and enjoy. We all love Camaros. Just seems like some vendors wont give up untill they have the last word.

You are right tires are very important, as are brakes. However the OP was asking about sways, Pete made the point that he feels a good foundation is the best place to start suspension modification. Sure you can jump to sways, or coilovers, he is just trying to help th op get the most bang for his modding buck.
I see from your post count you are either new here or dont feel the urge to post. If you hang out a while you will get to respect Pete and the other sponsers on this forum as very knowledgeable, and willing to help any way they can.

[mhog]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Rich is 100% correct. Start your 5th Gen mods with the foundational elements.

Sub-frame bushes or inserts
Radius Bushes or inserts

These are the components that make EVERYTHING else on your ZETA II 5th gen work better. Control the rear sub-frame to is how you control rear end step out -- the looseness you feel in the rear of your 5th Gen. Reducing unwanted castor changes with radius bushes or inserts improves your steering wheel feel. It becomes more precise or on center. Adding lowering coils, more RWHP or stickier tires or whatever only makes matter worse until you address the foundation.

Star with the foundation. A large number of 5th gen owners have found it is all they need to do. We'll others become addicted and suspension fever sets in

Yes it does. My Camaro has Pedderitis!