Sat in Camaro today, some disappointment

[trm0002]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Number 3 --

I vote your quote:


".....Why can’t the Big 3 compete? Why can’t Michael Phelps win a gold medal with hand cuffs on....."

as quote of the Year!!!!

PERFECT!!!

That's fine as long as he specifically states who put the handcuffs on...

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If only your comments were true. Yes the cost structure has an impact on what the car will cost. And yes it would be nice if every care we built had "no compromises” Unfortunately; to BE General Motors you have legacy costs from your history, a history that brought a LONNNNGGGGGGG list of wonderful cars including now 5 Generations of Camaros. Innovations, inventions and creations that most of you are unaware of. GM was god in the crashworthiness world when I took a break and worked for another OEM, because we did so much incredible work over many years on saving lives in car crashes.

So BEING GM has legacy costs that the Japanese and German OEMs don't have. You act like it is GM's own fault in your posts. But you don't seem to be bothered that the reason the Japanese and German OEMs don't have these costs is because the government funds the health care completely. They have no costs. Did you know that the Japanese OEMs benefit $1,000 to $2,000 dollars on every car because of manipulation of the YEN. Yep free money.

So don't bash GM for this. Our government has let it happen, and the American people don't give a darn. Any lack of competitiveness isn't in our ability to design, engineer and build great products, it is in the very social issues that we as Americans ignore.

As far as no compromises? Well try to imagine every engineer getting their way. Only a very few cars on the road use THE best leathers, woods and metals without cost in mind. For all of you posting that “this little change would have only added a little cost or a little mass so GM is a FAIL for not doing it” you need to understand what it’s like to keep a car under mass and cost targets. Mass means fuel economy and performance. If 20 engineers just asked for a little bit more, virtually no more, the car would have been heavier and cost more.

So please quit making statements like that. This is an incredible car by any stretch. I've shown it to my friends at that Japanese OEM where I used to work and watched them pour over it with keen interest and enthusiasm.

Sorry to rant. It’s just so hard reading these comments about how easy it is and that GM is a FAIL because they don’t get it. That is the problem we have in the eyes of many people at the government level right now. They have no policies like they do in Germany or Japan that help their own industries and for some reason many of you seem to be ok with that. Why can’t the Big 3 compete? Why can’t Michael Phelps win a gold medal with hand cuffs on.

Again, sorry for the rant, but it had to be said IMO.

I completely understand your frustrations. I want to be clear that I am not being hypocritical here because I will buy a Camaro.

I want GM to be the best they can be. Problem is, while I have seen massive improvements over the last 4-5 years in product, I still think there is much more room for improvement. That is why I have given much praise where it is deserved but I also am not afraid to point out areas where I think the company is continually flawed. I want to buy American, but I won't let American companies rest just out of ideology. That's part of what got GM into a pickle to begin with - core customers buying and saying their products were great when, lets face it, there was a time when they weren't anywhere near.

Please understand that I think the Camaro is a great car - it is by far the best car I a have seen out of GM EVER. The body panels have no gaps. For all of my ranting about the interior is it still a very high quality interior (I pissed some people in line off at the auto show because I spent about 10 minutes just feeling the knobs, switches, and other pieces/parts in the car)...... but there can still be improvement that I think would have happened if it were not for a still malligned cost structure that GM has to deal with.

I am in clinical engineering at a well known Cleveland hospital and we have to submit at minimum 6 cost savings reports/ideas to my boss every fiscal quarter - at the same time, we must continue to provide top quality service and maintenance on all critical life support systems and equipment. No corners cut, but still under budget. Believe me, I know how trying that can be but it can be done.

What we don't have to deal with are legacy costs. I won't flush this thread down the political toilet, but I will say that GM didn't HAVE to agree to provide healthcare to every person back when these contracts were negotiated. GM could have had 401k or other investment options for retirement instead of a company funded pension. Most people in this country have a 401k or 403b or other retirement investment options (whatever they're worth now is not the point - they're not burned by the profits of a single company, but many different ones). Most people in this country have a healthcare plan provided by a third party and they pay a monthly stipen out of their paycheck to keep it, and have deductables and co-pays and other expenses. Even at the hospital we still have to pay for it.

The legacy costs, company funded pensions, company funded healthcare, no matter who is to blame, they were completely avoidable, and for that I do blame the powers that be at GM. Not you, or Scott, or anyone else who really don't have anything to do with it. In fact I think you do a hell of job considering the circumstances...... which is why I'm sure every car you make would be so much better if the right cost structre was there.

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean anything I say personally, it's my completely objective view of the modern global automotive business from someone who's followed pretty much every car from every car company in the last 20 years.

[Number 3]

All nice 20/20 hindsight. Looking back maybe we should have let the UAW shut down GM to avoid these costs. Maybe looking back GM couldn't see the future well enough to know that in time the economy would implode and they couldn't sustain the healthcare and pensions.

When I was growing up, GM had 450,000 employees in the U.S. Now it is well less than 100,000 in the entire world. Can anyone think of a way to negotiate those costs away? There are brilliant minds that have worked for years to do just that. The VEBA was a giant step in negotiating that away. The global implosion in the economy blew that into the water. So GM should have seen the economy going in the tank this year? NO ONE saw that coming. If the economy was sound GM would be looking brilliant for the VEBA and clearing those costs off the book. But the auto industry is running at nearly half the volumes of 2007. Do you know of a business in a major restructuring that could cope with that? Nope.

So if you want to go back in time and criticize every decision go ahead. But go back and bring up every great thing GM did as well. It is what it is.

But right now IT'S THE ECONOMY, not GM products, not past labor agreements. It's the same thing that has cost many members of this community to have lost their jobs or lost hours.

I appreciate the oppinions here, and I am not saying GM hasn't made mistakes. All companies do. But to pile on and bash a company that has a history so interwoven into what we know as the 20th Century is wrong.

And yes I am biased and yes I have more than a nickel in this. I could go on and on about the things GM has done for everyone. But that isn't the point. We have an opportunity as Americans to do or NOT do something great. If you think that your children and their children will have a great future buying everything from China and India, I wish you well. I fear that future. I don't see how it can benefit us.

And all because we want to save a few cents on our socks.

[Angrybird 12]

I don't understand what the controversy is about a Soft touch instrument panel.. Just because it is soft touch does not make it a better product.. it just feels softer when you touch it.. ohhh soo sweet.???

Dang it! the only time I touch my IP is when I wipe the dust off of it.. There is no other reason that I know of...it's not like I'm gonna make love to the darned thing...

[ArcAngel]

well skyman its that attitude that frankly has led to the near demise of the big 3, little details like that are the the reason many people stopped buying american and went foreign, that attention to detail is what in peoples mines(general public) shows that the customer is important. In the customers perception these little things , like soft ip etc etc shows an attention to detail and a perceived attention to the mass customer. In reality there is no difference in quality but in perception the difference is huge! That my friends is the real battle the big 3 have been loosing in this war over these past 3 decades, the perception battle. If they don't do the little things no matter how great product is they will always lose out!

[bobby35ny]

Hi Guys!!
Keep in mind, I posted my gripes, thats all I did, I ORDERED the car, I'm BUYING the car. I just threw my opinion out there on some short commings. no need for anyone to get hostile towards others. I tried to be objective thats all. TONS of positives on the car. tiny few negatives. Thats what a forum is all about discussion, debate etc. No one needs to go to the gutter.

Sidenote::: I remember watching the grillings on the CEO's of the big 3. Major thing I heard was....WE WERE SELLING CARS UNTIL THE CREDIT CRUNCH HIT. so it wasnt that they were making the wrong cars.

-bobby

[Stex]

I had three new goats, one a ram air, and the Camaro will be my first muscle since then...IF, I fit well ie..seat position good, pedals right etc, car goes like heck (2SS) and the ride is not brutal...all else is just like and dislike noise that I will over look...for the go, ride, fit and overall looks...if worried about interior get an Audi S5 V-8 for about 20-30m more...

we are talking the last chance at a muscle car....not a family sedan...I do not recall anyone rating the muscles cars for interior quality...some were better some were worse...we just bought and drove what we liked...never ever felt the dash...?? buy one and just enjoy it....

[Pappi]

First is was the gas cap...then the B piller...head lights....shunt...CGM....visor....ip and many more that i missed...


Did I ever say I hate being around negative people...at work, home, the car dealership, all its does is mess up a great day...

The 2010 Camaro is what it is and I am happy that I will be receiving one this year...We all have choices to make I know I made the the right one thanks GM..

Pappi

[jimhowie2000]

I was actually very impressed with the Camaro overall when I saw it at the Cincy and Cleveland auto shows, enough so to trade in 4 cars to order one. Personally, I do not now, nor have I ever been able to figure out why everyone goes so nuts over Japanese cars. I have never owned one nor would I ever. Everyone knows that the big three had horrible quality control in the 70's and 80's, yet the strides they have made since then have gone largely unnoticed. I am old enough to remember the crap the Japanese peddeled in this country in the late sixties into the early eighties. How about Toyotas that religiously had head gasket failure at 50,000 miles, Mazdas, Nissans and Hondas that broke timing belts at about 60-70,000 miles and correspondingly turned the engines to scrap metal, Toyota pickups that had serious bed rust and structural rust at 3-4 years old, Honda Accords that had to have front fenders replaced under warranty after one winter due to rust out, and now, the glorious Camry with its transmission troubles that everyone is ranting about. They made junk, yet the label did not stick to their products as it has to American vehicles.

As for the other points brought up in this thread, I don't know of a single time where state or local governments have given GM, Ford or Chrysler money to build a production plant in their state or given them land tax free......the state of Ohio gave Honda $92 million to build its plant in Marysville, and I also remember hearing about one of the southern states granting KIA land tax free to build a plant. We do not treat our own manufacturers as well and it seems highly unfair. Remember also that the Japanese manufacturers do not have to put up with the UAW and its demands.

And for those who think the Japanes cars are so over engineered, they have been decontenting their cars for the better part of the 90's and this decade. This is another area that irks me, Japanese cars have grown fatter and less fuel efficient since the 70's yet, nobody scolds them for this. Our cars got smaller and more fuel efficient and everyone complains about the mileage. PErsonally, I think everyone buys Japanese cars strictly on reputation of others rather than actual experiences. Case in point, Consumer Guide admitted to giving New Japanese cars excellent reliablity and frequency of repair records without having anything to go by but past tests on older models that had no relationship to their current counterparts other than the name. Does this seem fair? NO!

And take a real hard look at those "Quality" products Toyota makes....I rented a Corolla last month and quite franky, the thing was nothing but cheap ill fitting plastic on the inside, tinny sounding doors, uncomfortable seating, the paint had orange peel so bad you could not even see your reflection in it, the bumpers were two shades darker than the rest of the car and the door sills did not line up on either side. The thing was overly noisy and the gas mileage was nowhere near what was advertised, even driving like an old man with it. I was not the least bit impressed. My "07 Cobalt was far better than this in every area.

So, overall, I still remain mystified as to the foreign is better mentality. I do hope America wakes up and starts buying the few things we actually build here. If not, as someone else stated, our children can look forward to poorer lives with no jobs while other countries continue to prosper.

[Hesh]

I fail to see how a soft touch interior makes any difference on someones perception of a car. It doesnt make it better because its soft, plastic is plastic. What matters is if there are no large gaps, and it doesnt squeak and rattle while going down the road. When hitting a bump or pot hole the interior parts dont seem like they are going to fall off because of all the movement. Is the seating comfortable for extended drives. I think some peoples perceptions are skwed at what should matter in an interior. Yes the look of an interior is important, but not the be all end all of my decision. It just a small part of the car ,and in this car the interior with the rest of the package that is offered is ABSOLUTLY GREAT!!!! Now where is my kool-aid, fruit punch flavored if ya got it.

[drivingincamaro]

Originally Posted by Freedom of Speech

So people can't voice their own opinions anymore? Is that what you're saying? Do you just ban everyone that disagrees with you?

No people get banned because of excessive Flaming to other members or trolling



We want people to have intelligent discussions with other members

not constant flaming like some new members have been doing lately

------------------------------------
on another note

i actually loved the interior it is such a refresh from the plain boring interior of my civic

im only driving a 95 civic is because im stuck in it until i get my camar

[Z/28orSs]

really? i think PERCEPTION is the reason people choose imports over GM cars Not attention to detail

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by jimhowie2000

I was actually very impressed with the Camaro overall when I saw it at the Cincy and Cleveland auto shows, enough so to trade in 4 cars to order one. Personally, I do not now, nor have I ever been able to figure out why everyone goes so nuts over Japanese cars. I have never owned one nor would I ever. Everyone knows that the big three had horrible quality control in the 70's and 80's, yet the strides they have made since then have gone largely unnoticed. I am old enough to remember the crap the Japanese peddeled in this country in the late sixties into the early eighties. How about Toyotas that religiously had head gasket failure at 50,000 miles, Mazdas, Nissans and Hondas that broke timing belts at about 60-70,000 miles and correspondingly turned the engines to scrap metal, Toyota pickups that had serious bed rust and structural rust at 3-4 years old, Honda Accords that had to have front fenders replaced under warranty after one winter due to rust out, and now, the glorious Camry with its transmission troubles that everyone is ranting about. They made junk, yet the label did not stick to their products as it has to American vehicles.

As for the other points brought up in this thread, I don't know of a single time where state or local governments have given GM, Ford or Chrysler money to build a production plant in their state or given them land tax free......the state of Ohio gave Honda $92 million to build its plant in Marysville, and I also remember hearing about one of the southern states granting KIA land tax free to build a plant. We do not treat our own manufacturers as well and it seems highly unfair. Remember also that the Japanese manufacturers do not have to put up with the UAW and its demands.

And for those who think the Japanes cars are so over engineered, they have been decontenting their cars for the better part of the 90's and this decade. This is another area that irks me, Japanese cars have grown fatter and less fuel efficient since the 70's yet, nobody scolds them for this. Our cars got smaller and more fuel efficient and everyone complains about the mileage. PErsonally, I think everyone buys Japanese cars strictly on reputation of others rather than actual experiences. Case in point, Consumer Guide admitted to giving New Japanese cars excellent reliablity and frequency of repair records without having anything to go by but past tests on older models that had no relationship to their current counterparts other than the name. Does this seem fair? NO!

And take a real hard look at those "Quality" products Toyota makes....I rented a Corolla last month and quite franky, the thing was nothing but cheap ill fitting plastic on the inside, tinny sounding doors, uncomfortable seating, the paint had orange peel so bad you could not even see your reflection in it, the bumpers were two shades darker than the rest of the car and the door sills did not line up on either side. The thing was overly noisy and the gas mileage was nowhere near what was advertised, even driving like an old man with it. I was not the least bit impressed. My "07 Cobalt was far better than this in every area.

Funny I remember most of that, but the sixties were a bit early for me. I have older friends that have said the same and have read about the issues the Japanese auto makers had in the sixties. I really don't have any complaints about the interior of the new Camaro. After all it's supposed to be an affordable performance car, not a luxury performance car. First year cars always seem to get more refined the next year and considering the tough times GM is in and the fact they can produce the new Camaro is a bonus. The new Camaro is what I have been waiting to see GM produce for a long time and can see past the the minor things.

[ArcAngel]

z28orSS the perception against American autos comes from that lack of detail so yes really