Sat in Camaro today, some disappointment

[35thLE SS]

Well, I have trolled on this forum for over a year and have not felt the need to join until now. I just have to give my two cents in all of this.

Originally Posted by fastball

What I am saying is that EVERY car GM builds should not have a single compromise. And if costs can't be kept down, perhaps it's a good thing for GM to go ch. 11 to get their costs in line with competitors which would otherwise be impossible with union contracts and such.

First show me any car that has “no compromises” for under 40K? To me a great built car with padded interior panels and with mediocre performance does not qualify as no compromises. Maybe to those who could care less about speed and performance it doesn’t matter but to me it does. I know many will throw out the 370Z as an example but I just don’t agree that it is perfect and feel it has compromises like any other mass produced car available to the general public.

I have owned and still own two Camaros. A second gen and fourth gen. Like any car that evolved through the years the changes and characteristics of the car were not always perfect especially considering the ever increasing safety and emission standards as the years progressed but the Camaro always stayed true to its pony car roots.

I am a car guy to the core and so I realize that my views will be criticized by many, so be it. To me the Camaro has always remained true to being unique. This has been its saving grace and its downfall through the years. The Mustang I feel had better sales in history because it is closer to a traditional car in its seating position and general ergonomics compared to the Camaro. The Camaro always has had a certain feel to it the no other car offered. I feel the 5th gen is no different. My only concern is whether there are enough people around in today’s cookie cutter society to appreciate the Camaro. With that in mind I would rather see the 5th gen come and fail than have GM, Scott, and the rest of the team make the Camaro something it is not meant to be to appeal to those who have no understanding of a cars personality. We have enough boring made from the same mold cars out there that do this and I would rather not see the Camaro insulted. All things considered the 5th Gen is as good as a CAMARO can be. If this Gen Camaro is not accepted it is because its kind is no longer wanted and there are not enough people around to appreciate what it is and what it means to own one. This probably sounds ridiculous to those who are concerned about vanity mirrors and how much work they have to do to move the seat forward. I want GM to make a rebound and come back strong, don’t get me wrong, but I am glad through all this they have a team that knows how to build an American Muscle Car and make no compromises in that area.


I know I am probably a minority in my opinions because I feel us American Muscle Car “fanboys” like our “Kool-Aid” so much. I am part of this group that is shunned by most in today car buying society. For my old school outdated opinion there is no foreign car that has ever nor will ever compete with what it is like to own and care for an American Muscle Car like the Camaro. This includes the look and feel of the car and what it is like to hear the rumble and power of a V8. I realize there are many foreign cars that can be compared to the camaro in horsepower and performance but for me I only like the way an American V8 achieves this feat. I take pride having owned Camaros and am very excited to see the name reborn and alive back on the streets in the form of a new and brilliantly executed form.

I am very passionate about the Camaro and it is difficult to not be insulted by some comments made in this thread not only about the Camaro but how Scott has been treated by some. To me it just shows a lack of understanding and respect that I suppose just does not exist anymore. Times have changed a lot and I really hope the new Camaro still has its place. With a lot of the comments I have seen made on this forum I have some doubts but still remain optimistic overall.

I am sure I will get flamed and many will explain why my “fanboy” views are wrong and there are things I need to understand. This is the main reason I have never joined. With the statements made in this thread I don’t care anymore. I am proud of the Camaro and wish it well.


Thanks Scott for all of your work and dedication to the car and your commitment to all of us in the Camaro community.
I also appreciate Number 3’s input and defense of the car. It is clear that driving the 5th gen is more than just a job to you and you take pride in the car.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by fastball

I am in clinical engineering at a well known Cleveland hospital and we have to submit at minimum 6 cost savings reports/ideas to my boss every fiscal quarter - at the same time, we must continue to provide top quality service and maintenance on all critical life support systems and equipment. No corners cut, but still under budget. Believe me, I know how trying that can be but it can be done.

What we don't have to deal with are legacy costs. I won't flush this thread down the political toilet, but I will say that GM didn't HAVE to agree to provide healthcare to every person back when these contracts were negotiated. GM could have had 401k or other investment options for retirement instead of a company funded pension. Most people in this country have a 401k or 403b or other retirement investment options (whatever they're worth now is not the point - they're not burned by the profits of a single company, but many different ones). Most people in this country have a healthcare plan provided by a third party and they pay a monthly stipen out of their paycheck to keep it, and have deductables and co-pays and other expenses. Even at the hospital we still have to pay for it.

The legacy costs, company funded pensions, company funded healthcare, no matter who is to blame, they were completely avoidable, and for that I do blame the powers that be at GM. Not you, or Scott, or anyone else who really don't have anything to do with it. In fact I think you do a hell of job considering the circumstances...... which is why I'm sure every car you make would be so much better if the right cost structre was there.

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean anything I say personally, it's my completely objective view of the modern global automotive business from someone who's followed pretty much every car from every car company in the last 20 years.

Two thoughts:

I would never attempt to tell a hospital how to run their business....why? Because I've never worked in the health care industry.

YES -- I've had several hospital stays -- but I'm still not a subject expert......

(it could be argued that my hospital stay would have been MUCH better if a certain nurse........well........nevermind....but it would have only cost a few bucks more!!!!........) (OK -- I'll go stand in the corner now.....)


Now-- I'm not saying this to slam you.....

What I AM saying is that I take exception to "GM didn't HAVE to agree to provide health care............" -

Oh Really?

May I suggest you go and dig up any major newspaper from ANY of the Strikes that the UAW waged against the big three---

The last one was bad enough that the President of the United Statee became involved.

Go look at 1998 -- the strike nearly killed us -- and it nearly put several suppliers out of business. (go ask SLP!!)

IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE...........

The U.S. auto industry has not been on a level playing field for many many years.........and I'm sorry, but I think people need to go and look very hard at the competition --

I remember sending a group (at the Atlanta Auto Show) to one of the Japanese displays -- asking them to find a car that had an interior as nice as the LT Leatherette Interior in the Aveo at the time (two years ago???)

They were absolutely STUNNED --

We suffer from a perception problem -- and a soft I.P. isn't gonna fix that.

Once again -- I remind you -- we utilized the15 Disciples on many many issues........it's not like we did not listen to anyone..........

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by ArcAngel

z28orSS the perception against American autos comes from that lack of detail so yes really

No-- NOT really.

Show me the studies.

Show me in black and white.

Quick story:

Hartford Connecticut.

Hotel

in one room -- Corolla with Honda badges -- Civic with Chevy Badges.

the other room -- Corolla wiht Chevy Badges -- Civic with Toyota Badges


70 percent of the respondents (over 1,500 people) ranked the car with the Chevy Emblems at least 20 percent below the other vehicle.............


Soooooooooo............tell me about the 'details'

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by Beechdoctor

I'm surprised that seat bases are not power, but not a deal breaker.

The driver seat is fully powered. The only thing not is the flip-down to access the back seat. The passenger seat is powered except the movement forward and back as well as the flip down. This is to aid in quicker access to the back seat from the passenger side.

[Angrybird 12]

People tend to ignore any flaw in a Japanese Car, because they are supposed to be perfect, and anyone that loves them will never admit to ANY flaw in one... Yet with a domestic, they tend to pick apart any small detail they see as being INFERIOR to their percieved notion of the perfect car... It's those people not the US car makers that have the real problem. they need to open their eyes to what is really the problems and not the percieved problems...

[ArcAngel]

well that is just ****ed up bias, there is nothing right about that.( Meaning Fbodfathers scenario ) Like I said I believe that most of the quality is the same , but they have for so long been placed in the GP head that it isnt because of these little details, that magazines, etc espouse that now its almost automatic by these people

[DDustiNN]

This is the most ridiculous conversation I've ever seen. Apparently everyone is now has a Master's Degree in Auto-Maker Budget-Managing... that's cool, I had no idea. But to think that every product ever built should have "no compromises" is just ignorant. If you have all of the answers, then tell me why aren't you in the driver's seat as CEO of a large corporation? Everyone always thinks they can do everything so much better than the experts, but where is the evidence to back this up? Sure it's easy to say, but come on... get real. You sound like an idiot.

That being said, I think the Camaro development team has done an exceptional job of keeping the car as close the concept as possible, while still delivering many of the modern features that car-drivers expect. Are there a few things that I don't like? Of course. But in comparison, they're so minor that they will never wipe the smile off my face when I sit in the driver's seat.

And as for all of the fuss over foreign cars... I'm surprised no one has pointed this out... but I notice this every single day, and it drives me insane. All of these cars are the most god-awful ugly things I've ever seen!!! Every time I see a Toyota Prius I want to on the driver. It's clear to me that these people have horrible taste as far as exterior looks go (which, of course, is always a matter of opinion... but wow). So to think that these people are not making "compromises" is also ignorant. They are buying a cheap car, so I would never even expect to compare that to the Camaro. Those should be compared with cars such as the Focus, which is now starting to look extremely similar to these foreign cars... so much so, in fact, that it's starting to scare me. I'm glad we still have cars like the Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang. Get them while you can, cuz it's easy to see where the auto-industry is heading... horribly ugly hybrid cars. And yes, even the Volt - hideous.

As you can see, the look of a car is extremely important to me. I only think my current car is "ok" in that aspect, but only got it as a temporary car while I waited for this Camaro. It looked decent, had nice features, and a decent price, so I figured it'll do until then. But I don't feel that most of these people are "settling" only temporarily, like me. So in this modern world of incredibly ugly cars, I am going to embrace my new Camaro as if it were my first-born child.

[BLUEMARO]

Originally Posted by DDustiNN

Apparently everyone is now has a Master's Degree in Auto-Maker Budget-Managing... If you have all of the answers, then tell me why aren't you in the driver's seat as CEO of a large corporation?

How would you know if we are or are not?

[DDustiNN]

Originally Posted by DDustiNN

Apparently everyone is now has a Master's Degree in Auto-Maker Budget-Managing... that's cool, I had no idea.

Originally Posted by BLUEMARO

How would you know if we are or are not?

You left that part out

[dkc5205]

I sat in the 2LT and 2SS at Sands Chevrolet in Surprise, AZ and thought both were awesome,not a single complaint

[GrnMchin]

So I went back and read the first post again just to view the dislikes of the car interior. Just my thoughts about it since I ordered.

Gas fill no big deal to me most the cars I drive have it on the drivers side, but Gen one Camaro is in the back so not a issue due to the fact even if I fill up once a day something that is easy to get use to. Not really a factor at all for me.

Wire loom didn't even notice had to go back to some pics that were posted to get an idea so I guess that would also be a non issue due to the fact I didn't notice it.

Dash again not really an issue with me.

The seat I can see how this could be a pain. I'm not using the Camaro as a daily driver and have a four door Stratus that we are keeping to use as multiple people hauler. So I can see how this could get to be a pain for those that are using it to haul more then two persons.

Vanity light dislike, never use them. So again non factor.

Just my thoughts on the original post.

[Silver Streak]

Originally Posted by fastball

I completely understand your frustrations. I want to be clear that I am not being hypocritical here because I will buy a Camaro.

I want GM to be the best they can be. Problem is, while I have seen massive improvements over the last 4-5 years in product, I still think there is much more room for improvement. That is why I have given much praise where it is deserved but I also am not afraid to point out areas where I think the company is continually flawed. I want to buy American, but I won't let American companies rest just out of ideology. That's part of what got GM into a pickle to begin with - core customers buying and saying their products were great when, lets face it, there was a time when they weren't anywhere near.

Please understand that I think the Camaro is a great car - it is by far the best car I a have seen out of GM EVER. The body panels have no gaps. For all of my ranting about the interior is it still a very high quality interior (I pissed some people in line off at the auto show because I spent about 10 minutes just feeling the knobs, switches, and other pieces/parts in the car)...... but there can still be improvement that I think would have happened if it were not for a still malligned cost structure that GM has to deal with.

I am in clinical engineering at a well known Cleveland hospital and we have to submit at minimum 6 cost savings reports/ideas to my boss every fiscal quarter - at the same time, we must continue to provide top quality service and maintenance on all critical life support systems and equipment. No corners cut, but still under budget. Believe me, I know how trying that can be but it can be done.

What we don't have to deal with are legacy costs. I won't flush this thread down the political toilet, but I will say that GM didn't HAVE to agree to provide healthcare to every person back when these contracts were negotiated. GM could have had 401k or other investment options for retirement instead of a company funded pension. Most people in this country have a 401k or 403b or other retirement investment options (whatever they're worth now is not the point - they're not burned by the profits of a single company, but many different ones). Most people in this country have a healthcare plan provided by a third party and they pay a monthly stipen out of their paycheck to keep it, and have deductables and co-pays and other expenses. Even at the hospital we still have to pay for it.

The legacy costs, company funded pensions, company funded healthcare, no matter who is to blame, they were completely avoidable, and for that I do blame the powers that be at GM. Not you, or Scott, or anyone else who really don't have anything to do with it. In fact I think you do a hell of job considering the circumstances...... which is why I'm sure every car you make would be so much better if the right cost structre was there.

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean anything I say personally, it's my completely objective view of the modern global automotive business from someone who's followed pretty much every car from every car company in the last 20 years.

I love how people think it is such a bad thing to take care of an employee after they retire. Sorry you feel that way! No GM didn't have to do that but they did and I think they are better for it. The problem is people are letting the foriegn companies dictate what and how our American companies should operate. That is BS! Sickens me to think that people just don't care about retirements and benefits for those who have spent their whole lives working for it! So your answer is to avoid it. Why don't you write your reps and tell them you want the laws to favor american companies and not foriegn companies, why don't you stick up for your own instead! I don't understand this kind of mentality at all.

[Redwolf20]

Originally Posted by ArcAngel

well that is just ****ed up bias, there is nothing right about that.( Meaning Fbodfathers scenario ) Like I said I believe that most of the quality is the same , but they have for so long been placed in the GP head that it isnt because of these little details, that magazines, etc espouse that now its almost automatic by these people

ArcAngel I think the million dollar question is, are you buying a Camaro?

[bobby35ny]

I have a question to throw out there...................

How do you convince the public that the big 3 equal or surpass honda/toyota??

Really, how do you do it?

=bobby