My Camaro went home to Oshawa to die......

[PQ]

Playing devils advocate here, is it possible that the pin sheared a tad long and was 'stuffed' up into the hole creating the appearance of a pin too long?

Originally Posted by garcmol

Same with the crank bolt, if my learnin' serves me correctly. Torque to yield, 1 time use.

Correct. I had to go to the dealer and by my HB bolt when I pinned the crank.

[Huggerorange73]

Originally Posted by PAUL SS

Is it possible the pin could appear flush with the gear face, but extend past the gear face as the bolt it torqued down?

I'll shut up now.









/

Anything is possible....anything.

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Well, if the tech thing doesn't work out -- maybe GM will get you a job in their real-world simulation testing labs or something... If it survives you and Dan -- and some of the other members on here, it should be pretty solid.

You guys don't just break a car.. You create chaotic art..

Thank you for the sig

Originally Posted by skip_168

nice! full on grenade... Thanks for the summary, 500 posts of would have made me ...

I thought it was just a over-rev or interference strike before...

GRENADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by PQ

Playing devils advocate here, is it possible that the pin sheared a tad long and was 'stuffed' up into the hole creating the appearance of a pin too long?



Correct. I had to go to the dealer and by my HB bolt when I pinned the crank.

Possible but unlikely I'd say.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

Possible but unlikely I'd say.

Agreed.

[Camarowguy]

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

Pin is in the cam already, Comp says it's on the installer to insure the pin is the proper depth for the application.

That's what I thought they would say. No matter what, no one want to eat a several thousand dollar repair bill, so no one is likely to man up to it. Sad, but true

[Banshee]

Mike and I have spoke about this on the phone...so forgive me the technical jargon.

My opinion...

Comp Cams warrantied the cam...great. This shows that they are a standup company and although I don't feel they are at fault, they have shown that they make things right.

Getting to your Speed Shop..

From discussing this on the phone, seeing the pics and related supporting opinion, by all means, the installer is at fault. Yes, this was a performance mod, BUT the performance mod was NOT completed/installed properly. It's one thing to have an engine with a cam/lifters fail at 50k miles and another with less than 1000. It's obvious (once built engines at a shop) that if a performance mod fails within a very short specified time, it's typically an improper installation issue. This opinion is inconclusive as it is dependant on the modification made and has many variables.

You also have diminished value of your car Mike...Yes, you will get a new GM LS3, but the value has declined.

My opinion (again)

Your builder should cover you at least 90% of the motor value...You did have 9k on it and typically an LS3 (or any LS engine) should be good for at least 125k. Yes it was modded (by them) and they failed to properly install their workmanship and the merchantability of the mod failed due to their error. They should R&R the original/new motor and install the new Cam (if you want) for free and pay the 90% of the new engine. I would not desire them getting a motor from anywhere without GM docs nor would I approve a pieced together motor because your trying to be a "nice guy".

All in all, their error, IMO has cost you an engine failure, transportation costs back to Chi Town, aggrivation, loss of vehicle, depreciation of your Camaro. It's not just about replacing your engine and making you 100% whole again...It's about you feeling 100% complete without question that how they rectified this is without fail, completely acceptable to you.

[SC2150]

The pin is only used to locate the gear...the proper torque of the bolt and the clamping force is what keeps it secure. If the cam was stopped abrubtly from a catastrophic failure the gear can and most times (if at a high enough RPM) will shear the pin at that time.

Most all but the small cover bolts are 1 use TTY...so always use a new one...same with the dampner bolt.

For the shop, it is standard to be allowed to do a repair or replacement themselves as it's only fair than cover costs from somewhere else doing it. Also they would be able to give you a built motor if they choose and I'm sure they will have improved from going through this.

As I posted before, Comp is one of the better companies I have ever worked with for standing behind their products and your getting a new crate motor for the time being is pretty smart while you consider what mods to do next.

Good luck! It's looking like a better ending than it could have been and you have gotten a crash course on engine building

[Huggerorange73]

Originally Posted by Banshee

Mike and I have spoke about this on the phone...so forgive me the technical jargon.

My opinion...

Comp Cams warrantied the cam...great. This shows that they are a standup company and although I don't feel they are at fault, they have shown that they make things right.

Getting to your Speed Shop..

From discussing this on the phone, seeing the pics and related supporting opinion, by all means, the installer is at fault. Yes, this was a performance mod, BUT the performance mod was NOT completed/installed properly. It's one thing to have an engine with a cam/lifters fail at 50k miles and another with less than 1000. It's obvious (once built engines at a shop) that if a performance mod fails within a very short specified time, it's typically an improper installation issue. This opinion is inconclusive as it is dependant on the modification made and has many variables.

You also have diminished value of your car Mike...Yes, you will get a new GM LS3, but the value has declined.

My opinion (again)

Your builder should cover you at least 90% of the motor value...You did have 9k on it and typically an LS3 (or any LS engine) should be good for at least 125k. Yes it was modded (by them) and they failed to properly install their workmanship and the merchantability of the mod failed due to their error. They should R&R the original/new motor and install the new Cam (if you want) for free and pay the 90% of the new engine. I would not desire them getting a motor from anywhere without GM docs nor would I approve a pieced together motor because your trying to be a "nice guy".

All in all, their error, IMO has cost you an engine failure, transportation costs back to Chi Town, aggrivation, loss of vehicle, depreciation of your Camaro. It's not just about replacing your engine and making you 100% whole again...It's about you feeling 100% complete without question that how they rectified this is without fail, completely acceptable to you.

Excellent post.....I'm hoping the shop & I see eye to eye on this.

Originally Posted by SC2150

The pin is only used to locate the gear...the proper torque of the bolt and the clamping force is what keeps it secure. If the cam was stopped abrubtly from a catastrophic failure the gear can and most times (if at a high enough RPM) will shear the pin at that time.

Most all but the small cover bolts are 1 use TTY...so always use a new one...same with the dampner bolt.

For the shop, it is standard to be allowed to do a repair or replacement themselves as it's only fair than cover costs from somewhere else doing it. Also they would be able to give you a built motor if they choose and I'm sure they will have improved from going through this.

As I posted before, Comp is one of the better companies I have ever worked with for standing behind their products and your getting a new crate motor for the time being is pretty smart while you consider what mods to do next.

Good luck! It's looking like a better ending than it could have been and you have gotten a crash course on engine building

Hopefully this all ends well....I'll know much more tomorrow.

[69 Rebel]

Good luck Mike, pulling for you

[Huggerorange73]

Originally Posted by 69 Rebel

Good luck Mike, pulling for you

Thanks much!

[getarz4u15ster]

Originally Posted by SC2150

The pin is only used to locate the gear...the proper torque of the bolt and the clamping force is what keeps it secure. If the cam was stopped abrubtly from a catastrophic failure the gear can and most times (if at a high enough RPM) will shear the pin at that time.

Most all but the small cover bolts are 1 use TTY...so always use a new one...same with the dampner bolt.

For the shop, it is standard to be allowed to do a repair or replacement themselves as it's only fair than cover costs from somewhere else doing it. Also they would be able to give you a built motor if they choose and I'm sure they will have improved from going through this.

As I posted before, Comp is one of the better companies I have ever worked with for standing behind their products and your getting a new crate motor for the time being is pretty smart while you consider what mods to do next.

Good luck! It's looking like a better ending than it could have been and you have gotten a crash course on engine building

I agree to an extent with your first comment... The pin is only used to locate the gear...the proper torque of the bolt and the clamping force is what keeps it secure. If the cam was stopped abrubtly from a catastrophic failure the gear can and most times (if at a high enough RPM) will shear the pin at that time.

I think this is a possibility with him, as he was at redline when this happened so sure that's feasible. But i was sitting at idle in my driveway at idle (and it ran fine for 6 months before it happened. If the pin length is off even by a few thousandths, proper torque values are not going to be achieved on any cam gear where the shoulder of the bolt covers that pin. I don't care if put a million LB/ft of pressure on it...

All in all..IMHO. I think a single bolt cam design on anything over 350hp motor is just plain stupid... these are performance motors and the weight of three bolts when balanced correctly (and were talking GM engineers here, which are some of the most advanced mechanical engineers in the world) should not be a problem .. Several Machinist and performance shops all say the same thing.. if your going performance, NEVER go back in with a single bolt camshaft...

[Russell James]

I think it's safe to say Comp Cams has a quality control issue. And if an installer is not watching out for that defect, this could happen.

When you see the same thing multiple times on the web sites, plus consider how many grenaded their engine and never really dug into the cause... and how many aren't members of web sites... who knows how many have been burned by this problem.

"Caution - Comp Cams single bolt cams, check the pin depth in the cam gear!" would be a good sticky thread in the engine section.

[getarz4u15ster]

Originally Posted by Russell James

I think it's safe to say Comp Cams has a quality control issue. And if an installer is not watching out for that defect, this could happen.

When you see the same thing multiple times on the web sites, plus consider how many grenaded their engine and never really dug into the cause... and how many aren't members of web sites... who knows how many have been burned by this problem.

"Caution - Comp Cams single bolt cams, check the pin depth in the cam gear!" would be a good sticky thread in the engine section.

agree with your suggestion!

[Nvincent4708]

Originally Posted by Russell James

I think it's safe to say Comp Cams has a quality control issue. And if an installer is not watching out for that defect, this could happen.

When you see the same thing multiple times on the web sites, plus consider how many grenaded their engine and never really dug into the cause... and how many aren't members of web sites... who knows how many have been burned by this problem.

"Caution - Comp Cams single bolt cams, check the pin depth in the cam gear!" would be a good sticky thread in the engine section.

After seeing this.. I will never buy a single bolt cam

[garcmol]

I agree with everything about pin depth (possibly) being the root cause of this due to the bolt not being torqued to the gear, rather the pin.

However, how many timing gear variations are out there and what are the varying thicknesses of them? Wouldn't this (cam pin) been be built that long and, depending on the timing gear thickness, ground down to recess behind the bolt? I would think a manufacturer of camshafts would do this so it could be used in different applications. I'm not trying to bash the installer, but I would think that would be a clearance that would have been checked. If it protrudes then grind it down to sit flush or recessed a bit. No? Am I way off here?