ZL1 vs Corvette- Why do people insist this doesnt exist? Impacts on pricing/perf?

[91Z28350]

I guess I am one of the weird ones. With a little internet digging, you can find Z06's in the mid 60's (new) and right now you could get a 3lt GS w/mag and dual mode for mid to high 50's (depending on what GM offers you qualify for). Having grown up in a Corvette owning house, and lusting after IROC's as a teenager, it seems very natural for me to shop for the best value in performance for my money(and a Z06 is such a VERY SWEEEEEEEEETTTT ride!) between the two.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by MY1STCAMAR0

How much is a brand new CTS-V? You can probably bet that the ZL1 will have the same price tag considering it has the same engine and the technology that is equipped.

Same block that's it. It's all marketing hype.
A Camaro SS has the same engine as the ZR1, difference is the ZR1 has all forged internals, better head accessories, et al. That's why the SS engine is an LS3 and the Corvette engine is an LS9 (LS3 with better internals), and a supercharger.
Word on the street is the ZL1 is still an LS3 with modest boost no forged internals, perhaps lower cylinder compression for boosted application.
I've seen a ZR1 tuned to over 600rwhp. with all stock components just a dyno tune. The ZL1 with supercharger is estimated at 580 at the crank. Do the math.

[IOMZL1]

If performance is the only factor… 0-60 times, etc. you will for sure get the Corvette because you don’t care about much else. I think in reality considering price – comparing the performance of the two is the closest you are going to get to a market overlap, but most who only consider performance will get the Corvette so it doesn’t really overlap at all. Why would you pick the car that weighs almost 1000lb more if you are performance minded? I’d pick the best foundation (Corvette) even if the weight / HP ratio is better on the ZL1. It is much easier to add power to the Corvette than remove weight from the ZL1…

If performance isn’t the only factor the two cars don’t really compare. You are getting a ‘halo vehicle’ in the ZL1 vs. ‘just another entry level Corvette’ for the same price or another view is you are getting a ‘poor man’s Corvette’ vs. a Corvette if you are on that side of the argument. Your ZL1 has 4 seats, the Corvette has 2. Your ZL1 is loaded with features, your Corvette isn’t or your ZL1 is new and your Corvette is used. Your ZL1 has ‘x’ look and your Corvette has ‘y’ look. As soon as we start talking about Corvettes in the mid 60s I think you have lost the price comparison because that is starting to be 5k – 15k higher than the ZL1 will likely be priced… not really the same market anymore.

I didn’t mean to say all Corvette owners are snobs… my dad owns one of each; but for sure they exist and for sure there are some under 30. Many Corvette owners are older because they have the money to buy one. I think you are more likely to go from Camaro to Corvette and be a fan of both than the other way around. One of my former coworkers was a young guy with an entry level Corvette, total snob from old $$ and he had a vanity plate ‘ERNU12’ or earn you one too – as if he had worked so hard to get it (in reality his dad helped him buy it). It was an automatic and he drove it like a grandma. I’m sure he just had it because of the status associated with a Corvette, not for the performance. People like that wouldn’t even sit in a Camaro rental car.

This thread caused me to go back and look at Corvettes…. I still can’t find myself personally being ‘excited’ about anything less than the Z06, but I’ll be happy with the ZL1 for probably 10k-25k less. Why? This isn’t the engineer in me talking because I know the performance numbers – this is the side of me that desires certain things in a vehicle. If I were buying the car to race only I’d just buy the best used Z06 I could afford because its going to get driven hard so I wouldn’t care about it being used and the performance is way better. I plan on using the ZL1 for limited track-work but mostly a weekend fun car to drive in the summer – sort of an all purpose ‘fun’ vehicle. My wife and daughter won’t both fit in the Corvette. The ZL1 is a perfect balance of performance and features for me.

[motorhead]

There are muscle car people ,and there are sports car people. Believe it or not, there is a large sum of people that don't like corvettes ,but love muscle cars like the camaro. I'm sure a few will justify the cost against a corvette. But in my book it really comes down to what you like better and I can tell you, people will be lining up for the ZL1 no matter how close in cost to the corvette it is. I know I am. And on the other side of the coin, there are a large sum of people that don't like the camaro and could care less about the ZL1 because they love the vette. My father-in-law is one of them. He thinks the Camaro is a joke no matter what they do to it because he's a corvette guy. Price won't matter much here. It has nothing to do with what ever you read in a marketing book or learn in an economics class.

[b4z]

Op, Couple of things. A base LS3 Corvette with the optional axle ratio will run 0-60 in 3.9-4.0 seconds. About what a ZL1 is going to run.
The performance difference between the top of the line Camaro and base Corvette will be almost nil.
Also Corvettes for about the last 4-5 years have been available with huge discounts-especially at the end of the model year.
So far, we have not seen those discounts on the Camaro.
I think when we hear anecodotal evidence about people cross shopping Vettes against GM's sport coupes, such as Camaro and GTO, what they buyer really wants is the Vette. For instance we've had a lot of people leave the GTO fold and buy a Vette(mostly used).
A lot of car guys want to own a Vette at some point in their life either as a garage queen or just to get it out of their system.
I can't tell you how many Vettes I've seen that have had 4-5 owners and are only 7 years old-and have low miles.

[b4z]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Same block that's it. It's all marketing hype.
A Camaro SS has the same engine as the ZR1, difference is the ZR1 has all forged internals, better head accessories, et al. That's why the SS engine is an LS3 and the Corvette engine is an LS9 (LS3 with better internals), and a supercharger.
Word on the street is the ZL1 is still an LS3 with modest boost no forged internals, perhaps lower cylinder compression for boosted application.
I've seen a ZR1 tuned to over 600rwhp. with all stock components just a dyno tune. The ZL1 with supercharger is estimated at 580 at the crank. Do the math.

You've been given some misinformation. LSA has rotocasted heads, powdered metal rods, etc. + a TVS 1900 supercharger, the LS9 has the forged internals you talked about + a TVS 2300 supercharger.

The guys on cadillacforums are running 650 rwhp on LSA's. They are borderline at the hp level and I know of at least 1 block failure.

[Larz29]

Given the weight difference the 'vette will take a ZL1. If you are racing a Z06 or a ZR1 forget it not even a race. With mine vs a '10 Z06 it wasn't even a race he pretty much destroyed me... However, if you are like me and really like the look of the Camaro over the vette, than who cares which one is faster? Obviously a vette will win that race any day, but again if looks are your thing who cares? Camaro wins hands down.

[djsnoflake]

I, for one, am definitely cross shopping a 2013 ZL-1 with the next gen Vette. I don't need to be first out of the gate to get a ZL-1, so may as well wait and see what the General has in store for the vette

[Larz29]

I agree with djs. Why be the first to get something? All you do is pay way more for something to have a few months sooner? Only an idiot would do that

[Arachnyd]

So it sounds like:

each car has a number of market segments. A number of these segments overlap eachother, and therefore although many customers will NOT shop between the two, a good number WILL shop between the two.

Therefore it can be reasonably derived that they WILL effect eachother and that GM must plan accordingly on the effects of one on the other.

Anyone who quickly says that there are no overlapping markets are clearly missing the boat... theres at least 4 people posting in this forum who are in that boat. at the same time, I will acknowledge that a lot of people WONT.

I bring it back to GMs stated core intent. Their goal is to increase INTERNATIONAL sales and YOUNGER sales. Do these two segments not seem like the targets that WILL compare the two?

given that this is their goal targets, then price WILL matter in the ZL1-Corvette discussion, and the performance of each will directly effect brand image of the product to these target markets.

I'm still sticking with the base C7 performance HAVING to increase, the base C7 pricing HAVING to increase to aroung 55+ like Cmicasa the Great XvX suggested, and the ZL1 base price HAVING to be under 52k.

The long term direction for the ZL1 has to be to go head to head with the GT500, although you may see it water down to go head to head with the boss, depending on how the market reacts and how ford reacts. If ford steps it up with the GT500, pops the 600 HP beast they say they will and they pop the price up towards the vette, then the camaro will water down and fight the Boss. If the ZL1 can stay up with the GT500, the corvette is going to have to separate itself from that battle completely.

When you read about the GT500, no one discusses it as a trim level of the Mustang. I think the same will be true of the ZL1. you can't draw conclusions from the LS and SS buyers and say the same people are buying the ZL1. ZL1 buyers are performance car buyers.

The CTS-V has entered the equation, but that is to compete with cars the likes of BMW M series and similar. Whens the last time you heard someone compare a M5 to a GT500? But you can't deny the GT500 is compared to the corvette all the time, including major publications like Motortrend, American Muscle, and car and Driver... the GT500 is also the car we all anticipate the Zl1 going head to head with, colliding the three cars. If this was my marketing class I'd suggest that the ZL1 and the corvette would want to straddle the GT500 and choke it out, with the corvette being slightly more expensive and better performing, and the ZL1 being slightly less performing and slightly cheaper. That would mazimize marketshare for Chevrolet. The problem with this is that the ZL1 is turning out to be a real competitor, but that MAY just be a pre-emptive strike as fords 2013 GT500 will outdo.. and outprice... the ZL1, with the 2013 corvette bettering the GT500. This scenario has the same outcome though... ZL1 has to be cheaper than many are anticipating, and the C7 vette has to be better performing and more expensive.

The only thing making this topic stickier is the 2016 cafe standards, but I'll save that for another day.

[Qdiesel]

Originally Posted by actireman

Single or married guy with kids and likes jeans = ZL1

Hey, I fit all three of those criteria and I want a ZL1!!!

[DLB]

ZL1 is being design to be King of Camaros. expect to Pay to be King. who cares about a Corvette. no one..( ************ I love Corvettes just go with this************** )
You can not compare the King to anyone else bc there is no one else like the King. The Corvette is ment to be the fastest cheapest most amazing supercar that the avg hard working person can have and enjoy.... the Camaro is for the rest of us who want a car thats a muscle car not a supercar but,...A Real American Muscle Car!

[Arachnyd]

Originally Posted by DLB

ZL1 is being design to be King of Camaros. expect to Pay to be King. who cares about a Corvette. no one..( ************ I love Corvettes just go with this************** )
You can not compare the King to anyone else bc there is no one else like the King. The Corvette is ment to be the fastest cheapest most amazing supercar that the avg hard working person can have and enjoy.... the Camaro is for the rest of us who want a car thats a muscle car not a supercar but,...A Real American Muscle Car!

So are you arguing that the ZL1 should NOT be compared to the GT500? in which case why are they doing 580 HP, I think more like 500 is more appropriate (in line with Boss). The GT500 is slated as the affordable supercar like the corvette.

I'd accept this argument EXCEPT the ZL1 is going to be TOO good and TOO expensive for this argument. In this case the ZL1 would have SS suspension, and probably a supercharged LS3 putting out 480-500 hp. Maybe make a few other tweaks like the boss has, and make it king of the camaro line, overpriced at about 46k for the camaro lovers who want the best.

The level the ZL1 is being built however is NOT to be king of the camaros. they are building a class A sports cars thats going to compete with the corvette and the GT500... That has to have effects on the chevrolet portfolio strategy.

Wouldnt you agree? if the ZL1 was NOT trying to compete with the GT500 and "supercars", then it would be more like the mustang Boss... why would they be spending so much money on R&D building a true performance beast, and driving up the cost unneccessarily, lowering profits AND lowering sales OF THIS PROPOSED MARKET SEGMENT.

I'd argue they are doing it because this is NOT their most significant proposed market segment, as if it was, we'd have a BOSS fighter on our hands, not a GT500/corvette fighter.

GM stated that their job is to MAKE MONEY with the new cars, so obviously they aren't doing it to feel cool, they are doing it because they are trying to tap those additional markets.

Segmentation theory would suggest that there are buyer segments between the SS and corvette going untapped by GM. The Boss is Fords answer and the Zl1 is Chevys answer.... however, it goes against most logical marketing theory to cannibalize your own products unless it is part of a long term strategy.

[Danko]

I am one of the oldest and most experienced here and over many years I have learned to liken cars to women. You enjoy what you have and keep trying for something different, whether better or not, and live enjoying some great memories while making more. I enjoy my 2010 MTX base model Vette and want a ZL1 with an eight speed automatic, too. When I left the dealer with the new Vette, I was already looking ahead to my next vehicle and when I get the ZL1 I will be thinking ahead again. Men are not designed to be satisfied easily. Mama Nature makes us conquest animals and the ZL1 is just another conquest for us. Enjoy, move on, enjoy something else, move on and sit back once in a while and just smile and relax.... then go get something else. Why bother comparing or choosing? HAVE IT ALL!!!!! Anything else is just unAmerican and plays into obamanure's plan to ruin this car-crazy country.