Camaro ZL1 Laps Nurburgring in 7:41.27. Enters Supercar Territory!!

[htron50]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

...INCOMING!!!

I agree Mac. It will come in at a price either we can or can't afford. And, it will be priced accordingly. Some people can't see the forrest for the trees.

Boo Yaa!!

[htron50]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

I don't understand what all the commotion is about. There are people that can't afford the SS and people that can't even afford a new Camaro period. It isn't as if the Camaro can be purchased by anyone in the US that so desires to have one. It also isn't as if the ZL1 comes in at $49,999 suddenly everyone who desires one will be able to afford it.

Sumthin tells me that a normally aspirated Z28 may be in the Base MSRP range of about $42,875, add a couple ZL1 options and have it out the door at about $48K. The Chevy folks are creating a gap in price that the Z28 is sure to fill! I can't say its a bad thing either. It's absolutely going to be a rocket in its' own right "if and when" the time comes. Could be a great great vehicle. If some of you are that concerned about the ZL1 price maybe you should recalibrate your dream down a bit. I remember all the talk about the next vision many had, and thought, would be the "Z"... remember, THIS ZL1 is the highest performance Camaro ever produced. How many of you would have really gotten near knowing a ZL1 even existed back in '69. The big block Camaro 396/375 was top dog. Z28 shared that spot or beat it. The ZL1 was out of reach for most.

C'mon Scott, tell em it's not so bad to recalibrate just a bit and maybe, just maybe, it would not be a bad thing... I can tell you that if BOTH were out now, it would be a FUN decision, not so stressfull!

My problem is I'm running out of waiting time......... agewise (not complaining). So, as they say, JUST DO IT. Hmmmm ok. "Why's that old fart driving that thing?"

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by NicolasKL

Because getting invoice (or x-plan) on a 2012 GT500 is a no brainer. I had four different dealers in the Midwest willing to do so, on in stock cars, with minimal effort. That equals a price of less than 46k. If the ZL1 debuts with a base MSRP of 55k, that's a 9k difference if you can get MSRP, and a 14k difference if the best you can find is 5k over MSRP.




It's not a real world method if they're not real world prices. You think you're going to be able to get a ZL1 for the 45.5k you can get a base GT500 for, or the sub 49k you can get an SVTPP GT500 for? I very much doubt it, and that's my point.



bottom line = real world, does not equal MSRP to MSRP, in this case.

We get that Nic. Ford has gone through the pricing cycle with the GT 500 from new and hot, to old and ho hum. Sadly, that car is like day old bread. You now can play "Lets Make a Deal" at the F dealership. The ZL1 will go through a similar experience with pricing. We are not going to to be able to get it for a 100.00 over sticker. We get that. Savy consumers won't pay over MSRP, which, is a real world price for the new product. Two different cars, at different points of their life cycle and the price is affected accordingly. May the HP wars continue...!

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by NicolasKL

Because getting invoice (or x-plan) on a 2012 GT500 is a no brainer. I had four different dealers in the Midwest willing to do so, on in stock cars, with minimal effort. That equals a price of less than 46k. If the ZL1 debuts with a base MSRP of 55k, that's a 9k difference if you can get MSRP, and a 14k difference if the best you can find is 5k over MSRP.




It's not a real world method if they're not real world prices. You think you're going to be able to get a ZL1 for the 45.5k you can get a base GT500 for, or the sub 49k you can get an SVTPP GT500 for? I very much doubt it, and that's my point.

bottom line = real world, does not equal MSRP to MSRP, in this case.

So I say we compare the GT500 prices from 2008 when they were being marked up. That makes about as much sense. Are you asking GM to take a loss on the ZL1 to anticipate dealer markup?

I will get MSRP on the ZL1. To me MSRP is the real number to compare. If you want to compare that to the discounted GT500 fine. I think the ZL1 is worth 10k more. If someone chooses to pay a markup that isn't my fault and it shouldn't be taken into consideration here. The price will eventually come down for everyone. Paying markup is a choice not a requirement.

If you want to talk about markup look at the Boss Laguna Seca. People are trying to charge high $50s for those. They aren't selling, and those are limited edition.

In my opinion there are too many variables to compare anything except MSRP. Negotiation skills of the customer shouldn't be a factor when GM decides to set a price.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

I don't understand what all the commotion is about. There are people that can't afford the SS and people that can't even afford a new Camaro period. It isn't as if the Camaro can be purchased by anyone in the US that so desires to have one. It also isn't as if the ZL1 comes in at $49,999 suddenly everyone who desires one will be able to afford it.

The average U.S. household income of the middle quintile in 1969 was $8,335. The average U.S. household income of the middle quintile in 2010 was $49,309. That's an average household income ratio of 5.915 of between 2010 and 1969. The 9560 COPO sold for $7,200 in 1969, which would be equivalent to $42,594 in 2010 to have the same average household affordability as in 1969. Therefore, the 2012 ZL1 will surely be less affordable for the average household today than the 9560 COPO was in 1969. The average household today would have to have a 29 percent higher income than it does for the ZL1 (assuming that its MSRP will be $55,000 to pick a number) to have equivalent affordability to that of the 9560 COPO in 1969. Of course, the 2012 ZL1 certainly has more features and technology than the 1969 9560 COPO had.

There's no real surprise that the top performance cars of today are less affordable than the top performance cars of 1969, as they are more advanced and safer. It's just an unfortunate reality of today that performance cars aren't as affordable as they once were.

[b4z]

Originally Posted by NicolasKL

Because getting invoice (or x-plan) on a 2012 GT500 is a no brainer. I had four different dealers in the Midwest willing to do so, on in stock cars, with minimal effort. That equals a price of less than 46k. If the ZL1 debuts with a base MSRP of 55k, that's a 9k difference if you can get MSRP, and a 14k difference if the best you can find is 5k over MSRP.




It's not a real world method if they're not real world prices. You think you're going to be able to get a ZL1 for the 45.5k you can get a base GT500 for, or the sub 49k you can get an SVTPP GT500 for? I very much doubt it, and that's my point.



bottom line = real world, does not equal MSRP to MSRP, in this case.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The Camaro has been more expensive than the Mustang for 35+ years. So the ZL1 will be more expensive than the GT500. + the ZL1 has MRC which will add to the MSRP and will also add value.
People see value in areas that are important to their wants and needs. If people only bought on price then there would be no BMWs sold.
The Camaro does it for me, the Mustang doesn't. I can fit in a Camaro, I can't fit in a Mustang. The Camaro is better looking than the Mustang. The Camaro has IRS the Mustang doesn't. I could go on and on.

Oh and I have access to a $98 over invoice dealer. And once the ZL1 is on the market for a year the deals will be even better. Just ask the buyers who got $15,000 off the ZR1 at the end of it's first year.

[b4z]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

The average U.S. household income of the middle quintile in 1969 was $8,335. The average U.S. household income of the middle quintile in 2010 was $49,309. That's an average household income ratio of 5.915 of between 2010 and 1969. The 9560 COPO sold for $7,200 in 1969, which would be equivalent to $42,594 in 2010 to have the same average household affordability as in 1969. Therefore, the 2012 ZL1 will surely be less affordable for the average household today than the 9560 COPO was in 1969. The average household today would have to have a 29 percent higher income than it does for the ZL1 (assuming that its MSRP will be $55,000 to pick a number) to have equivalent affordability to that of the 9560 COPO in 1969. Of course, the 2012 ZL1 certainly has more features and technology than the 1969 9560 COPO had.

There's no real surprise that the top performance cars of today are less affordable than the top performance cars of 1969, as they are more advanced and safer. It's just an unfortunate reality of today that performance cars aren't as affordable as they once were.

Yes, the max performance cars are not as affordable as they once were, but a $23K V6 Camaro has 323hp and is probably quicker than most of the performance cars of the late '60s.

[Blue Menace]

Golden Bear, you are quickly becoming my favorite person on here for sound, thoughtful comments. Thanks.

[htron50]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

The average U.S. household income of the middle quintile in 1969 was $8,335. The average U.S. household income of the middle quintile in 2010 was $49,309. That's an average household income ratio of 5.915 of between 2010 and 1969. The 9560 COPO sold for $7,200 in 1969, which would be equivalent to $42,594 in 2010 to have the same average household affordability as in 1969. Therefore, the 2012 ZL1 will surely be less affordable for the average household today than the 9560 COPO was in 1969. The average household today would have to have a 29 percent higher income than it does for the ZL1 (assuming that its MSRP will be $55,000 to pick a number) to have equivalent affordability to that of the 9560 COPO in 1969. Of course, the 2012 ZL1 certainly has more features and technology than the 1969 9560 COPO had.

There's no real surprise that the top performance cars of today are less affordable than the top performance cars of 1969, as they are more advanced and safer. It's just an unfortunate reality of today that performance cars aren't as affordable as they once were.

Bear, you'd be a hard negotiator with a company relocation department trying to get you to move to another city! They wouldnt pull one over on you! (worn that T-shirt!!)

[Amenti]

I"m not certain that I understand all of the discussion about pricing the Camaro out of the hands of working people in the middle class. The existence of the ZL1 does not make the LS, or any other Camaro trim level, extinct. Even at $55K to $58K, I think that the ZL1 rests comfortably, not outrageously, in the highest realm of pony-car pricing.

Most of us posting in this thread want a ZL1 more than they can adequately describe; I'm one of them. Some of those people, the faithful, may have been holding out to buy a Camaro, because they hoped and prayed for the track-ready monster that eventually became the ZL1. Those same people probably had their hopes dashed after predicting that the ZL1 would have a base cost of $48K, comparable to a GT500; and, that's unfortunate. I feel for those people; our brother and sister fanatics.

All of the exaltation at seeing this car come to fruition and the dismay at its as-yet-unannounced cost does not mean that Camaro is any less the blue-collar hero that it's always been. The LS, LT and SS are still there for the taking; and, they will continue to be available well after the ZL1 is released. Some might consider that settling for less; I see it as a reasonable compromise. Many LT and SS owners have modified their Camaros to be more than what rolled off of the assembly line; it does not make them any less the enthusiast, because they did not wait for the ZL1. Some people, including myself, simply realized that their budgets could not support a higher trim level and decided to make the most of what they could get, for it is better to have a gorgeous 5th Generation Camaro than none at all.

The ZL1 is true to its namesake in that it is the highest performing and most technologically advanced Camaro ever produced. For some, therein lies the problem. This manifestation of unbridled awesomeness is more than many of us expected, and more than many of us may be willing to pay for; but, why should it not exist at this price point? There are enthusiasts who are willing and able to pay for this car at a competitive price, and some that will pay yet more to have it. It most likely won't be priced much higher than a GT500 with the SVT package and some other goodies, which I think is fine. I have my Camaro, and I love it even if it can't go around the 'ring in 7:41.

Love what you have; love what you can afford; love your Camaro!










Worship the ZL1! (and get one used in a few years!)

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by Amenti

I"m not certain that I understand all of the discussion about pricing the Camaro out of the hands of working people in the middle class. The existence of the ZL1 does not make the LS, or any other Camaro trim level, extinct. Even at $55K to $58K, I think that the ZL1 rests comfortably, not outrageously, in the highest realm of pony-car pricing.

Most of us posting in this thread want a ZL1 more than they can adequately describe; I'm one of them. Some of those people, the faithful, may have been holding out to buy a Camaro, because they hoped and prayed for the track-ready monster that eventually became the ZL1. Those same people probably had their hopes dashed after predicting that the ZL1 would have a base cost of $48K, comparable to a GT500; and, that's unfortunate. I feel for those people; our brother and sister fanatics.

All of the exaltation at seeing this car come to fruition and the dismay at its as-yet-unannounced cost does not mean that Camaro is any less the blue-collar hero that it's always been. The LS, LT and SS are still there for the taking; and, they will continue to be available well after the ZL1 is released. Some might consider that settling for less; I see it as a reasonable compromise. Many LT and SS owners have modified their Camaros to be more than what rolled off of the assembly line; it does not make them any less the enthusiast, because they did not wait for the ZL1. Some people, including myself, simply realized that their budgets could not support a higher trim level and decided to make the most of what they could get, for it is better to have a gorgeous 5th Generation Camaro than none at all.

The ZL1 is true to its namesake in that it is the highest performing and most technologically advanced Camaro ever produced. For some, therein lies the problem. This manifestation of unbridled awesomeness is more than many of us expected, and more than many of us may be willing to pay for; but, why should it not exist at this price point? There are enthusiasts who are willing and able to pay for this car at a competitive price, and some that will pay yet more to have it. It most likely won't be priced much higher than a GT500 with the SVT package and some other goodies, which I think is fine. I have my Camaro, and I love it even if it can't go around the 'ring in 7:41.

Love what you have; love what you can afford; love your Camaro!










Worship the ZL1! (and get one used in a few years!)

I know price talk is the current hot topic with seemingly countless posts addressing the issue, but I'd just like to say this is just a fantastic post and hits the nail right on the head. Nice job

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

I know price talk is the current hot topic with seemingly countless posts addressing the issue, but I'd just like to say this is just a fantastic post and hits the nail right on the head. Nice job

I also agree with you 100% and you wrote it eloquently I might add. All of us had our own particular price point in our minds that we felt the ZL1 should cost. The talk that it would be competitively priced with the GT500 led us to start thinking of the $48,000 mark. That idea was quickly dashed by Fbodfather. Slowly the realization that the price might start reaching the $60,000 mark out the door is a very real possibility. $60,000 can buy a lot of car from many different makes. Each of us will have to look within ourselves and our wallets to see if we can justify spending that much money on fulfilling a dream or will another car make us just as happy. It will be a decision each of us will have to make on our own. The question remains, when you wake up at 3:00 in the morning and you walk to the garage door and open it, what do you want looking back at you saying "Let's Ride"?

[Scarrzz]

.


I'll be driving my paid off truck until I can afford ZL1. Nothing else will satisfy me.

If ZL1 was a woman, I wouldn't even want to look at another one. I'm that much in love.

Watching that lap was just another confirmation that my heart has chosen wisely.



.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

I know price talk is the current hot topic with seemingly countless posts addressing the issue, but I'd just like to say this is just a fantastic post and hits the nail right on the head. Nice job

Agreed, nice post!

Can you tell that price is one of the few topics left to debate?