What should the GM answer be in response to the 2013 GT500 Crustang?

[big hammer]

Originally Posted by RedRooster

And yet neither car currently exists outside of prototypes.



No kidding. I love the 'vette comments.

"Yeah, well we still have the 'vette!"

Great. We weren't comparing the GT500 to the 'vette, we're comparing it to the ZL1.

Look, as I pointed out above, this entire conversation is pointless until both cars exist in production form and are compared head to head. Otherwise, any claims of one car being superior to the other are pure fiction because no one knows either way because they don't exist yet.

the vette is very relevent. the mustang is fords top performer the vette is gm's top performer. the new gt500 will still be lucky to even touch the zo6.

another reason the vette is relevent is because of the way that gm's marketing ensures that the camaro never overshadows the vette. sure they could have built the zl1 with the ls9 with ease. but then all of a sudden the higher priced z06 is in a precarious position. so the lsa it is.

could gm have set the bar even higher with the zl1? of course. gm's current flagship (zr1) makes the new gt500 still look like a volkswagon beetle. it's not like they don't have the technology to do it.

[ParisTNDude]

Originally Posted by RedRooster

I'm pretty sure the guys buying Lambos, Porsches and Ferraris wouldn't even consider a Chevy or a Ford.

Afterall, at the end of the day, we're still driving a Dodge/Ford/Chevy, and he's got an exotic. Most of those guys don't care about having the fastest car on the planet.

I spent about 13 years in Europe and 3 of them with a full bolt on C5 Vette and I can tell you, the guys driving Porsches and Ferraris were very much aware that American Chevys put out some power whether it's for the top end or the road courses... Yeah there were plenty of tuner cars that simply blew by me, but bone stock 360 Modenas couldn't beat me and very few Porsches. I had a Mustang Foxbody 5.0 there as well, but that's a totally different story.

[Qui3tStorm]

Question was what is GM's answer to the 13' GT500 ... I agree with the ZR1 Vette comments, GM built that car in the manor Ford tries to imitate with the Mustang series. And the GT500 will fall short of the Vette STILL... But anyways, ZL1 .. Nice efforts but the Z needs to lose weight. They did run a very impressive lap around the nurburgring it'll be interesting to see what the Ford actually does. Everyone is going off of pure speculation right now. But since everyone is consumed by numbers, do some weight reduction mods and slap on a bottle + tune = more power...

I read that the GT500 is coming with 285's??? All the power in the world but if you can't put it down, its worthless. I know I know there will prolly be a launch control and everyone will say who runs with stockies anyway. But still With that power & price, that pig should come READY!

[Qui3tStorm]

Originally Posted by Doris8888

Good luck on that price I am betting both the Zl1 and the 2013 shelby will be in stratospher for initial price. Wait a year and that will change. However on a positive note I bet the 2012 sheblys will be heavily discounted when the 2013 arrives and in price comparison may be a very good deal.

Upwards of 56K , it will be interesting to see the older 500's prices...

[evolve]

Originally Posted by Qui3tStorm

Question was what is GM's answer to the 13' GT500 ... I agree with the ZR1 Vette comments, GM built that car in the manor Ford tries to imitate with the Mustang series. And the GT500 will fall short of the Vette STILL... But anyways, ZL1 .. Nice efforts but the Z needs to lose weight. They did run a very impressive lap around the nurburgring it'll be interesting to see what the Ford actually does. Everyone is going off of pure speculation right now. But since everyone is consumed by numbers, do some weight reduction mods and slap on a bottle + tune = more power...

I read that the GT500 is coming with 285's??? All the power in the world but if you can't put it down, its worthless. I know I know there will prolly be a launch control and everyone will say who runs with stockies anyway. But still With that power & price, that pig should come READY!

I wonder which one will go BOOM first.

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by big hammer

the vette is very relevent. the mustang is fords top performer the vette is gm's top performer. the new gt500 will still be lucky to even touch the zo6.

another reason the vette is relevent is because of the way that gm's marketing ensures that the camaro never overshadows the vette. sure they could have built the zl1 with the ls9 with ease. but then all of a sudden the higher priced z06 is in a precarious position. so the lsa it is.

could gm have set the bar even higher with the zl1? of course. gm's current flagship (zr1) makes the new gt500 still look like a volkswagon beetle. it's not like they don't have the technology to do it.

like a couple of people already said...now it is a Z06/ZR1 vs. GT500 around here. Some of you guys are giving up on the ZL1 already?

[Deki]

Originally Posted by RedRooster

I'm pretty sure the guys buying Lambos, Porsches and Ferraris wouldn't even consider a Chevy or a Ford.

Afterall, at the end of the day, we're still driving a Dodge/Ford/Chevy, and he's got an exotic. Most of those guys don't care about having the fastest car on the planet.

lol I agree. I've done track days with guys like this. Some have highly modified exotics and go all out with no care if they run off the track or hit a barrier, while others just go to the track and try beat their own times. They usually keep a comfortable pace they set for themselves, and they wave me by quite often. I'm pretty sure they don't give two hoots about a $60k Ford or Chevy anything beating their cars in the turns or the straights.

A close friend of mine picked up a 2011 M3 with the Competition Package and DCT about the same time I bought my Mustang. He was deciding between a Cayman S PDK and the M3 DCT, and after a few weeks of test driving them, he ordered the M. We were hanging out at a local bar one night, and one of our other friends asked him why he got an M3 when he could have bought a GT for half the price and got the "same" performance (one test came close, every other test shows the M3 having quite a large lead on various tracks). We both laughed at him, and he just didn't get it. I was with him when he was shopping for his car, and not once did I ever mention the Mustang to him, and not once did he ask me about it. Didn't even bother test driving it. He was with me when I bought my car, and buying an M3 never even crossed my mind. Two different markets, for two different types of buyers. There is more to Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other expensive (and exotic) cars than just numbers.

The GT-R is just one example of that. It out performs a 911 Turbo for a lot less money, and yet, people that buy the 911 Turbo don't even look at the GT-R. It's not just about the badge, or having a status symbol. It's about the pedigree of the brand. Some guys worked their whole life to get to the point where they can afford a machine like that. While Ford and Chevy have strong racing histories, they are not as "colorful" as Ferraris or Porsches racing histories. The pony cars don't have the exotic look the cars of higher caliber posses. The same guys that buy a new Ferrari/Lamborghini for 300+k are the same guys that pay $200k for a Boss 429, or $400k for a 69 ZL1. Why would they care if your car, that costs less than their maintenance costs over a 6 year period, is faster then their limited production, hand made, carbon fiber infused, F1/LeMans/GT2 derived diff/engine/transmission equipped car that people take pictures of at gas stations, hotels, or on the street? It's not like they can't just go out and buy one.

And I'm sorry, but I don't care if you have the most amazing sounding 1,200whp, 7 second 1/4 mile, Camaro SS/Mustang GT in the world, I would tune it out if an F430 rolled by. I wouldn't even have to hear it to know how good that flat plane crank 4.3L v8 sounds. Every time I see one, even parked, I know how it sounds, in my head. I got to drive a 16M at PIR for one lap, at a very slow speed, and I got to drive an LP560-4 right after, and it was an experience I will never forget. Same owner. Nice guy. Let three other people he never met drive his cars that day.

Call me a Ferrari/Lamborghini/Porsche fan boi, but I love those cars. I've loved them since I was a little kid. They build dream machines, not just cars. Even when they drove like shit, they were still highly sought after. Even after they proved to be handfuls on the street, people still bought them. Maybe it's clever marketing, or maybe it's just the mystique of the brands since they are unattainable to Joe Averageman, but every one of my friends wants an F40...or an F50...or a Diablo...or Muricelago...or a 288GTO. Hell, my favorite Ferrari of all time is the one Ferrari refused to put his name on, a 1972 Dino 246GTS. 195hp out of an anemic V6, and if I had one, I would drive that thing every where.

[big hammer]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

like a couple of people already said...now it is a Z06/ZR1 vs. GT500 around here. Some of you guys are giving up on the ZL1 already?

you cant read very well hey :(

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Qui3tStorm

... I agree with the ZR1 Vette comments, GM built that car in the manor Ford tries to imitate with the Mustang series. And the GT500 will fall short of the Vette STILL...

Manor? They're building Corvette's in opulent dwellings now? I thought they were built in a factory in Bowling Green.

As for Ford trying to imitate the 'Vette with any version of the Mustang, you're living in some alternate reality. That has never been the case. The only time you ever saw a Mustang being compared to a Corvette is when GM was not producing a car in the same segment.

You can bet if I'm in a ZL1 and I get my ass handed to me by a GT500, the last thing I'm going to be thinking is, "oh well, we still have the Z06/ZR1".

[calbert1999]

The whole Corvette vs Mustang debate is rediculous.

That comparison is more like Corvette vs Ford GT (and I'm not referring to the Mustang), not sure if there are more recent versions but this is really the high end of Fords race heritage vs that of GM.

Get it straight; Camaro vs Mustang and Corvette vs Ford GT.

All the Corvette vs Mustang arguments are irrellevent.

Originally Posted by tooslow

Manor? They're building Corvette's in opulent dwellings now? I thought they were built in a factory in Bowling Green.

As for Ford trying to imitate the 'Vette with any version of the Mustang, you're living in some alternate reality. That has never been the case. The only time you ever saw a Mustang being compared to a Corvette is when GM was not producing a car in the same segment.

You can bet if I'm in a ZL1 and I get my ass handed to me by a GT500, the last thing I'm going to be thinking is, "oh well, we still have the Z06/ZR1".

Right on bro', tell the newbs to get with the program.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Deki

lol I agree. I've done track days with guys like this. Some have highly modified exotics and go all out with no care if they run off the track or hit a barrier, while others just go to the track and try beat their own times. They usually keep a comfortable pace they set for themselves, and they wave me by quite often. I'm pretty sure they don't give two hoots about a $60k Ford or Chevy anything beating their cars in the turns or the straights.

A close friend of mine picked up a 2011 M3 with the Competition Package and DCT about the same time I bought my Mustang. He was deciding between a Cayman S PDK and the M3 DCT, and after a few weeks of test driving them, he ordered the M. We were hanging out at a local bar one night, and one of our other friends asked him why he got an M3 when he could have bought a GT for half the price and got the "same" performance (one test came close, every other test shows the M3 having quite a large lead on various tracks). We both laughed at him, and he just didn't get it. I was with him when he was shopping for his car, and not once did I ever mention the Mustang to him, and not once did he ask me about it. Didn't even bother test driving it. He was with me when I bought my car, and buying an M3 never even crossed my mind. Two different markets, for two different types of buyers. There is more to Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other expensive (and exotic) cars than just numbers.

The GT-R is just one example of that. It out performs a 911 Turbo for a lot less money, and yet, people that buy the 911 Turbo don't even look at the GT-R. It's not just about the badge, or having a status symbol. It's about the pedigree of the brand. Some guys worked their whole life to get to the point where they can afford a machine like that. While Ford and Chevy have strong racing histories, they are not as "colorful" as Ferraris or Porsches racing histories. The pony cars don't have the exotic look the cars of higher caliber posses. The same guys that buy a new Ferrari/Lamborghini for 300+k are the same guys that pay $200k for a Boss 429, or $400k for a 69 ZL1. Why would they care if your car, that costs less than their maintenance costs over a 6 year period, is faster then their limited production, hand made, carbon fiber infused, F1/LeMans/GT2 derived diff/engine/transmission equipped car that people take pictures of at gas stations, hotels, or on the street? It's not like they can't just go out and buy one.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think some potential 997 turbo owners bought GT-Rs instead. Do you think all the GT-R owners were cross shopping GT-Rs with honda civics? Go to the track on some Porsche club days and you'll see a few GTRs out there, they didn't previously own an f-150. 99.9999% of potential exotic buyers are not going to buy a Mustang or Camaro because it makes more power than the Ferrari. However, what you will see is the exotic buyers taking a more critical look at straight line performance in those exotics when certain models are being overshadowed in performance by far cheaper cars. For example let's say Lamborghini offers a new 650hp lambo, Ferrari offers a 562hp 458. It may only be a few, but some of those potential Ferrari buyers will think, "well I like both cars, so why would I buy the Ferrari over the lambo if the Ferrari makes less power than a damn 60k camaro?" 5 people deciding to go a different direction loses Ferrari over a million in revenue, whether they decide to go with the lambo, a bentley, whatever it doesn't matter. The 202mph top speed of the mustang is also going to be something Ferrari is concerned about.

Ferrari and Lamborghini are in the business of making supercars that are supposed to be the best around. When their power output is being overshadowed by pony cars their pride is going to be hurt and their perceived superiority loses merit. They're going to react. Ferrari isn't going to be happy at the auto show when GM is on one side with a 580hp camaro, Ford is on the other with a 650hp Mustang, and they're in the middle with a 562hp $200,000 supercar. It takes away form the WOW factor they are so reliant on. I love Ferrari as much as the next guy, in fact we've had 3 in my family since I was born, but they're lagging behind on performance innovation as of late, but I bet we'll see some of that great craziness return to Ferrari in the next few years.

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by big hammer

gm's current flagship (zr1) makes the new gt500 still look like a volkswagon beetle.

...a Volkswagen Beetle that makes more horsepower.

Heck my bone stock GT500 put down more power to the tires then some ZR1's do, and with a hundred extra horses at the crank I can see the new 2013 GT500's putting down a hundred extra horsepower then some stock ZR1's. It will even pass all the new base, Grand Sport and Z06 Corvette's on its way up to its top speed of 202+mph.

ZR1 is still king


but no longer the king of horsepower.

[VADER SS L99]

I dont want to ever hear of or see a Mustang vs Corvette topic again. It is a disgrace and you GM faithfull should be ashamed of your selfs. I dont care what you do to the current Mustang, it will never be in the higher class of the Vette. It would seriously be like someone compairing the new Dodge Charger to our car. Lets say your a Texas Longhorn fan and OU beats you. Are you going to cry about it, make excuses and say well at least we have the Dallas Cowboys. That team will beat OU. I mean come on people. If the 2013 GT500 beats the snot out of the 2013 ZL1 you just need to be an adult about it and hope your team(oops car,lol) can come up with a better showing next year. To those who say GM does not have to make the ZL1 as good as the GT500, yeah sure they dont have to but it sure would be a big slap in the face if they dont. They did build the ZL1 for the sole purpose to compete with the GT500. The same way GM builds the Vette to compete with the likes of Porsche, Ferraris, Lambos, and pretty much every other piece of Euro trash sports car. Just because the new GT500 will likely out accelerate the current ZO6 and probably throttle the base Vette, don't think for a second that it is in the same class.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

You're kidding yourself if you don't think some potential 997 turbo owners bought GT-Rs instead. Do you think all the GT-R owners were cross shopping GT-Rs with honda civics? Go to the track on some Porsche club days and you'll see a few GTRs out there, they didn't previously own an f-150. 99.9999% of potential exotic buyers are not going to buy a Mustang or Camaro because it makes more power than the Ferrari. However, what you will see is the exotic buyers taking a more critical look at straight line performance in those exotics when certain models are being overshadowed in performance by far cheaper cars. For example let's say Lamborghini offers a new 650hp lambo, Ferrari offers a 562hp 458. It may only be a few, but some of those potential Ferrari buyers will think, "well I like both cars, so why would I buy the Ferrari over the lambo if the Ferrari makes less power than a damn 60k camaro?" 5 people deciding to go a different direction loses Ferrari over a million in revenue, whether they decide to go with the lambo, a bentley, whatever it doesn't matter. The 202mph top speed of the mustang is also going to be something Ferrari is concerned about.

Ferrari and Lamborghini are in the business of making supercars that are supposed to be the best around. When their power output is being overshadowed by pony cars their pride is going to be hurt and their perceived superiority loses merit. They're going to react. Ferrari isn't going to be happy at the auto show when GM is on one side with a 580hp camaro, Ford is on the other with a 650hp Mustang, and they're in the middle with a 562hp $200,000 supercar. It takes away form the WOW factor they are so reliant on. I love Ferrari as much as the next guy, in fact we've had 3 in my family since I was born, but they're lagging behind on performance innovation as of late, but I bet we'll see some of that great craziness return to Ferrari in the next few years.

Exotic car makers would have to be foolish not to "care" about pony car numbers and to think that a consumer is not concerned would be a big mistake. You're absolutely correct not everybody purchases cars simply for pedigree or for their excessive collections.

I'd say most save every penny to get one and actually want to drive the cars, and definately don't want to be beat by a vehicle that cost 1/10 of what they paid.

Show anybody with a overly priced exotic a 1000hp. pony car and I assure you they'll look at you like you just destroyed their whole world because they thought it's totally impossible. Then they do just like we do, start the mods baby. I've seen a few Ferraris in the shop lately, all wondering if they can have what the Corvettes or Camaros have in them.

Definately superior in their own right, but to say numbers don't count would be a bad mistake for any executive to make.