Customer Complaint thread

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by VR Code R6P

If I tell you what I want built in advance, why should it take longer than it normally would when I order any other vehicle?? I have ordered many new vehicles, and normally the wait is 6-8 weeks. GM sounds like they want a lot of us to wait till at least the 3rd Qtr......why? If I would have ordered March 16th, I would normally be getting a car soon. I order Oct 16th, and I'm still at 1100 on a number one allocation to my dealer. I must be missing something........

You are missing something.....but it's because you may not have thought about this:

When you order a car or a truck that's been in production, we're rollling at a regular line rate......and in some cases, there are multiple plants building that particular product. (Silverado is built at several plants...)

This is a brand new vehicle.

This is, for all intents and purposes, a new plant - with all new equipment.

If we were to start the line-rate at 'full' -- the cars would be completely unacceptable - and frankly, they'd be unsaleable.

We heard you. You made it clear that this car must far exceed any previous Camaro in terms of quality, safety, handling, and performance......and we intend to deliver on that.

That means that the line rates are very slow at the beginning -- that means that some of the early cars are 'bayed' and are being retro-fitted -- that means that we won't be up to a full line-rate for some time - and that means that we do this so that we CAN deliver on our promise of a quality Camaro that's gonna blow you away. (and judging by the remarks of those who are taking delivery -- I think you can see that this is the case...)

Will they be perfect? I wish that would always be the case -- but I can assure you that some of you will break them!

We have established the following:

1. There were around 15,000 pre-orders

2. On March 16 we were building about 30-50 cars a day --

3. We are currently at just over 200 cars a day.

Do the math.

[Cam10RS]

I did receive a return call and I been assigned a moderator??, I will be calling back tomorrow to talk to him, I know Good Luck, But What ever I find out I will let all know ( Good or Bad)

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

well -- thank you -- and I wish I could agree with you -- but I don't think that's what most people are upset about - -

What most people are upset about -- at least from what I'm reading -- and from the PMs I've rec'd -- is this:

" ...I ordered my car on October 18th and I should be first!..."

No one from GM ever said that if you order your car on October 18th, you'll be first -- we said those cars -- when ordered within a dealer's allocation - would be built by the third quarter - and we will accomplish that - in fact we hope to accomplish it much sooner.........

There are many issues -- I'm trying to explain as many as possible -- and the many complexities -- but all too often there are 'experts' that tell me I'm wrong.......in fact someone told me I didn't know what I was talking about when it comes to Auto Franchise laws in various states!! (the person making this statement, I'm assuming must be an attorney that has extensive experience in franchise law...???)

Look -- I've got broad shoulders - it comes with the territory ...-- but I AM losing patience with some - esp. those who mislead..........

But --I digress - I thank you for your kind words.

Scott,

I do want to thank you for taking the time to address our concerns. We may not like what we hear sometimes but rest assured we all think your a great guy!!

=bobby

[jeffny09]

o boy

[bob2the2nd]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

well -- thank you -- and I wish I could agree with you -- but I don't think that's what most people are upset about - -

What most people are upset about -- at least from what I'm reading -- and from the PMs I've rec'd -- is this:

" ...I ordered my car on October 18th and I should be first!..."

No one from GM ever said that if you order your car on October 18th, you'll be first -- we said those cars -- when ordered within a dealer's allocation - would be built by the third quarter - and we will accomplish that - in fact we hope to accomplish it much sooner.........

There are many issues -- I'm trying to explain as many as possible -- and the many complexities -- but all too often there are 'experts' that tell me I'm wrong....... ( I've got broad shoulders - it comes with the territory ...) -- but I AM losing patience with some - esp. those who mislead..........

and i think you have totally hit the nail on the head. I wasnt able to order till middle of November, and knew when i ordered i was obviously going to be pushed back. Am i currently happy with how long things have taken of course not (still sitting at 1100), but I also didnt have any exceptions of knowing i was going to get the car at a set date. Of course I was hopeful i would have it by a certain time but I knew going in there were no guarantees. that said if i had ordered on October 13 ahead of 13000 of the 15000 other pre-orders I probably would be getting a little impatient.

As always thank you for all of the insight you provide I hope you realize it is greatly appropriated ...and ...just out of curiosity is there any chance you know when i will get my car

[GRM RPR]

There were many reasons we conducted the Early Ordering Activity.

1. We wanted to determine demand. Until the activity, we could only estimate demand for the overall car and the individual models and option. Thanks in large part to these early orders, we were able to ensure production and demand closely aligned.

2. We wanted to provide a realistic expectation of when vehicles would be produced. If we followed normal procedure, all orders would have arrived just before production started with no real sense when they would be produced. Through the RP6 activity, we were at least able to provided clear expectations of when individual dealer’s could see a Camaro order produced for their dealership (between SORP and Q3 2009).

3. We were able to provide acknowledgement to the customer that the dealer submitted the order and we were aware of its existence.

The issue with all ordering programs is there are orders that will be produced first and orders that will be produced last. It is not possible to produce every order first, so we turn to the dealers — the only group that can sell and service new Chevrolet product — and based on a fair and equitable method, provide production for them to control and submit their customer orders.

I wish I could thank each and every person that has ordered a Camaro to date for the faith they have in us. We will continue to work hard at getting every order produced and delivered with the highest quality to our customers.

Thanks

John Fitzpatrick
Marketing Manager - Camaro

Wow...just WOW! I think a lot of people including some of the dealers that post on this site owe Conti an apology after they pummeled him for his video comments after the IDL in December (if memory serves me correct). He hit the nail right on the head. I am speechless. This early order is exactly that . This whole thing makes me want to vomit!

Another thing....if it is against the "law" to produce R6Ps before unsold products then how in the hell is it OK to give unallocated products to dealers. I am so mad I could . WTF

[SWHCPA]

WOW...just waded through this thread. Several observations...

1) This is 2009, not 1969. There is 1000% more information available with a mouse click today than was ever available prior to 10 yrs ago. Unfortunately, this availability of information has created a generation with a sense of entitlement and simultaneous fulfillment.

2) 5-10 yrs ago, the preorder situation never existed. If you heard of a new model, you waited until the debut model showed up in a showroom and either paid a significant market markup based on supply/demand or you waited or you placed an order and waited. In virtually all situations, you waited. Saw this with the 30th and 35th Anniversary Mustangs, the Thunderchicken, the 1979 Mercedes 300SD turbodiesel. If you have to be #1, get out the checkbook and pay for it. Anyone could have outbid on #1 and you'd be behind the wheel today.

3) There are startup issues with every single model debuted. That's why the line starts slowly. There isn't a product made that didn't start with a slow production line. We're not even 60 days into production. What do you expect, Scotty on the transporter deck beaming you your car the day after you ordered?

4) I'm just as frustrated; however, there isn't a system in play that can produce 15,000+ cars instaneously. Someone will be first and someone will be last. The production guideline was from production day 1 to 9/30/09. That means that someone's car won't come off the line until 9/30/09. We now know that some dealers did not take preorders. That means they could get an allocation for a vehicle, order it and have it go into production prior to a preordered car. That's how the game works. Your dealer is 1 of several 1,000. Each dealer gets allocations based on any number of factors programmed into the software. Therefore, you can't predict when yours will start on the line...and you're totally at the mercy of any startup issues, transportation issues, equipment issues, option issues, etc. Further, 15,000 units out of the total expected volume is just a pimple on the elephant's butt. It's a big world and a big picture. Let me recommend that you elevate your perspective to the top of the forest's canopy to see it.

5) I got to test drive one on the 3rd. It met all of my expectations and surpassed a few. I'm happy with my decision to forego a Challenger and order a Camaro. Because I want a white one, I can't even get my order in a position to go into the queue.

The solution is quite simple...either be patient and take what comes your direction or give up and go buy something else. I've been around long enough to learn that if I'm patient enough, I'll either get exactly what I want or I'll outlast someone with lesser patience and inherit their position.

Yes, I would have handled some things differently between the concept debut to preorders to start of production; however, the larger the organization, the more difficult it is to get things done and the concept of efficiency becomes one of interpretation.

The production model has been in play since October and available to anyone that wanted to take the time to read, absorb and understand it. All of these "delays" should not be a concern or surprise to anyone on this board. My hat is off to those that actually had the balls to put a car into production that doesn't look like a cookie cutter version of something else in the brand's line.

[Silver Streak]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

the Lindberg Baby kidnapping!

First Shunt now this? :notheadlights:

I think we all need to have a , the Camaros will find their way!

Thanks again Fbodfather!

[ron8879]

fbodfather, I understand that you feel very angry about what people are saying but its not just a case of boo hoo my cars not here...I feel (this is my opinion) that I feel partially insulted by gm that people (including myself) put hard earned cash down on a car we havent seen or sat it, yet its not us that are getting our cars...if everyone of the cars that were sent to dealers to "show", and all the cars showing up in parades, and on tv shows, and the 30 something cars going down the street in the same color...than you would of delivered (a guess) about half our cars instead of only (from where I read on the forum somewhere) almost 700....I say this with respect to you, but I think this is a general feeling, which is not meant as a personal message to you or about you....

if gm wants to make cash, the get cars to people who have paid for them. Thank you for your time, Ron

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

What most people are upset about -- at least from what I'm reading -- and from the PMs I've rec'd -- is this:

" ...I ordered my car on October 18th and I should be first!..."

No one from GM ever said that if you order your car on October 18th, you'll be first -- we said those cars -- when ordered within a dealer's allocation - would be built by the third quarter -

Perhaps indicating back in October, that ordering a car in October would not guarantee it would be built before one ordered in April, would have been something worth communicating to your customers. It was not.

[shockandawe]

I think GM moved customer service to Mexico. I called last week to check on my car and I spoke to two different Mexicans that were very hard to understand and they had no idea what I was talking about! Way to take care of your customers GM!

[Bell040]

Hi Fbod,

We "pre-orderers" have only been saying that we need better communication.....

No one needs the ordering process to be perfect.... as we are understanding about hicups and delays........ we just care..... alot ...... about our recently born Camaro's.

Communication is key..... an email update to the pre-order guys/gals that ordered 6 months ago would be nice.... even if it was just to say that there are slight delays.... or just that GM has not forgot about you and your car is biult and can be expected to be delivered to the dealer sometime around.... xx/xx/xxxx

if that date changes... a new email (or update on a website) would be....

If a customer cares enough, like I do, he/she will find a site like this that has a inside link to a Camaro head-honcho like yourself.... and I am glad that I did... and I await reading your posts.... all of them.

You say that you regret giving the info in hindsight..... beleive me, that would just make it worse.

Thank you for providing much needed communication !!!!!!!

[ShnOmac]

PEOPLE THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING TO BITCH ABOUT..... THAT DOESNT MEAN YOU SHOULD ALWAYS BITCH.

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

I don't even know how to respond to this --

Stupid decisions?

Not thinking things thru?

Demand the best from them?

I'm not sure what the 'stupid' decisions are that you refer to -- but I DO know we've thought things thru - and we are doing our best. Look -- not to brag, but have some of you READ what people are SAYING about the cars on the road? Are you paying attention as to HOW the vehicles are being received by the public at large? The fact is that the car has incredible initial acceptance -- and, arguably, success....that means that there is heavy demand for it - -and that means that some -- SOME -- people -- are willing to pay over MSRP.......REGARDLESS of how many times I've typed "JUST SAY NO!"

The very easiest way to get initial 'approval' from some would be to ship the initial cars -- everyone's happy - until something goes wrong.

In case you missed it, there was an issue with a 'cracked' fascia over the weekend - by the time people got the REAL story, we'd been accused of everything EXCEPT the Lindberg Baby kidnapping!

Now -- we have made it clear that every one of the cars from start-of-production thru the end of March are being retro-fitted -- each car is being looked at very carefully and they are receiving the close scrutiny that they deserve.

Pay attention to the next part: (because I've discussed this many times already...) The issue of retrofits is nothing new. All new vehicle programs have this issue -- the difference is that years ago, the vehicles were shipped and THEN corrected.....at the dealership level........ The solution: We go dark -- and by that I mean we go back to being tight lipped and we no longer share information -- we start production without talking about it - we allow you to guess about the new car --(...and we saw where THAT went early on in the development of this car....) we allow you to guess about when we're going to start building them..... -- and we quietly start building them and holding them....and when the retrofits are done - we THEN start shipping cars -- of course that means that everyones' cars are 3 months later....but hey -- you asked for it......

Is that what you collectively want? (...newsflash - you'll never get a collective agreement...)


EDIT:
Wow -- I just read thru this post -- and I just hate posting something like this -- but frankly, a few people need to calm the heck down -- and stop making accusations - esp. when they have no idea or experience in building something this complex......

My apologies to most of you -- I really hate when a website boils over like this.......

You're COMPLETELY missing the point of everything I've been saying.

We want fairness. We want information. That pretty much sums it up.

I've never denied the fact that this car is amazing, I wouldn't have one on order if I didn't think so. That's not at debate here.

I've not bitched about the quality of the vehicle, nor the steps being taken to ensure that there are no issues (or at least as minimal as possible) affect customer cars. If there's delays, so be it. We want the car to be right and applaud GM for taking the steps to ensure that this is the case.

My first problem is that the preordering system was a farce (this is the stupid decision I was referring to). If GM had done no preorders and just started taking orders when the first allocation cycles opened back in February, we all would have been much better off (including you, personally!); so many of the issues would not have been issues at all. You may say, "fine, don't preorder, that was your choice". Well not really. Our hand was forced by the fact that if we didn't preorder, we would have no guarantee of when we could get a car, or so we were made to believe. I firmly believe that this system has given the upper hand to unscrupulous dealers by allowing them to NOT participate in preorders so that only the ones that are left with allocation can just charge way over MSRP. So now you have all these dealers getting lot cars and cars for customers that just found out that there's this thing called a Kamero with lots of horse power before people that put there order in back in November. It's happening all over the place.

Now, how come when a dealer calls up the DBC, they can't find out why their customer's car is lost in space? Why can't they get any sort of ball park as to when the ship will sail it on in? It seems like you (not necessarily you personally but GM) like to give out a bit of information just to get us in a frenzy and then clam up. You can't have it both ways. You either have to open up or clam up. Giving out little bits here and there isn't going to cut it. You only anger people and force them to want more. I would argue that the right course of action is almost full disclosure. But I'm sure many within GM would disagree. If you'll notice, all of these boil overs could be solved by more information. If GM would have written up an explanation of the preordering system and the plans for order production in some official documentation, we wouldn't be at this point. When the information is given, it all subsides. Even if we don't like the answer (ABL), it cools off rather quickly once the facts are known. When we're left all alone here just to stew on issues, the only option is eventual boil over. Another example… break weights.

That being said, I still do not understand why someone like John is incapable of signing up on this forum and posting. I find it hilarious that he has had to ask people to post information on his behalf. What’s he afraid of? You and other GM employees have been able to wade the treacherous waters of forum posting but no one from the marketing team can? It would make sense to me that part of his job would be community involvement. This isn't your responsibility but we really appreciate having you here. Could you imagine what would happen without you? Now only imagine if one or two members of the marketing team posted on here on a regular basis. I feel like you're doing part of John's job pro bono when you should be able to just have fun with the more pleasant issues instead of putting out fires.

Originally Posted by fbodfather

We have established the following:

1. There were around 15,000 pre-orders

2. On March 16 we were building about 30-50 cars a day --

3. We are currently at just over 200 cars a day.

Do the math.

Your information does not match up to the information posted by plant employees. It was stated that the first week of production they were over 200/day and are now over 360/day.

Originally Posted by Hylton

Perhaps indicating back in October, that ordering a car in October would not guarantee it would be built before one ordered in April, would have been something worth communicating to your customers. It was not.