2012 gt500 vs 2012 Zl1

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I am not understanding all the "advanced tech" references. The suspension? What? Is there anything new on the ZL1 that hasn't been on any car before? I am not trying to be smart-arse, I just want to add to what I already know. I am sure I am going to enjoy the ZL1's ability to hold its own in a roadcourse but I am not blind to the fact that it sorely needs the "high tech" suspension to negate its porkiness in order to compete in a roadcourse.

The MRC is a new two wire system that is faster on the discharge than anything seen on the Ferrari to date. Translation - they react faster to computer inputs and can go from full charge HARD to discharged SOFT multiple times per second. The S/TC is integrated into all the on board systems: brakes, throttle, suspension, transmission and steering. This is more advanced than any system on any car built today. The selections of S/TC programs is ranges from daily drive to wet performance to leave me alone I'll do it my way and includes launch control and no lift shift.

Couple the sophisticated electronics with the rear sway bar geometry change, more rubber front and rear... and the porkiness disappears.

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The MRC is a new two wire system that is faster on the discharge than anything seen on the Ferrari to date. Translation - they react faster to computer inputs and can go from full charge HARD to discharged SOFT multiple times per second. The S/TC is integrated into all the on board systems: brakes, throttle, suspension, transmission and steering. This is more advanced than any system on any car built today. The selections of S/TC programs is ranges from daily drive to wet performance to leave me alone I'll do it my way and includes launch control and no lift shift.

Couple the sophisticated electronics with the rear sway bar geometry change, more rubber front and rear... and the porkiness disappears.

Just like most here, I was aware of the advanced suspension but wasn't aware that it is this advanced. This explains very well why the ZL1 has been able to go very fast at VIR and other tracks despite its heft. It reenforces my decision to buy one as my roadcourse car. Thanks.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

Justice Pete, not trying to poke at you but what will you say when the 2013GT500 blows the ZL1 out of the water...0-60, 1/4 mile, and roadcourse?

BTW, I don't have a forum that I call home. Like many here, I am a car enthusiast, I belong to many forums because I have owned and own many different cars. I enjoy this hobby and can be biased but NEVER a blind one.

FYI...Camaro5 is getting a bad rep at other forums, get this, even at other Camaro/Chevy forums. We are being accused of blind fanboys.

ahhh so refreshing

I don't think I ever said the ZL1 blows the 2013 out of the water. What I have said repeatedly is that the Mustang needs more help to be road course ready than a Camaro. The ZL1 is far more capable out of the box than the SS and I see little improvement on the 2013 GT500 side for suspension, tires and wheels. The GT500 is lighter, has more HP and should be faster in a 1/4 mile, but I could care less about street cars and 1/4 mile times.

You already know I own a Mustang and thoroughly enjoy it, but I don't talk about that very much in this neighborhood

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

Just like most here, I was aware of the advanced suspension but wasn't aware that it is this advanced. This explains very well why the ZL1 has been able to go very fast at VIR and other tracks despite its heft. It reenforces my decision to buy one as my roadcourse car. Thanks.

That calls for another round!

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

That calls for another round!

I am full. For now anyway.

[Tob]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I have said repeatedly that the way Ford choose to present the 2013 in a Ford controlled environment was badly bungled and provides a wealth of material to devalue it.

The author of the article made it clear that "but if you knew the hoops we had to jump through just to plant our asses in the Recaro right seat for an afternoon, you’d understand." Do you need the hoops spelled out for you? This was a development segment, a specific one that was done during a period in which conditions mandated (via Ford's own internal regulations) a rather compromised tire.

According to your logic, it would have been a massive failure were GM to have given a "hoop jumping" journalist a look inside.

I ponder what the ZL1 ring time would have been on similar rubber, in secret of course. Wouldn't look good otherwise. Much better not to let anyone have a look inside, right?

Who thinks running the 2013 on snow tires was a media savvy move and showed it in the best possible light?

Isn't it obvious to you (yet) that Ford wasn't attempting to deviate from the scope of their development work in order to show something other than the task at hand? Ever seen a model without makeup? Should the ZL1 team be given credit for never allowing the public to view say, the rpm ceiling at which the ZL1 engine failed catastrophically due to yielding powder forged connecting rods and/or melted hypereuctic pistons? Sorry, bad example - GM won't tell you that one or publish the photos.

Look at it this way - you were given a glimpse as to how certain conditions affected controlled testing. Not a panoramic view into Utopia, where everything is always covered in glitter and nobody has to do any research and development work. Unicorns fly on nothing less than shaved Goodyears...

Who thinks that the spokesperson for the 2013 saying that the OEM street tires are as good a slicks gives him credibility?

If you're referring to Gene, your Google skills have failed you. He's a vehicle dynamics engineer and lead test driver at Ford Motor Company. I searched but could not find anywhere where Ford has dubbed him as a spokesperson.

That said, where did he say that the "OEM street tires are as good a slicks"?

What possible good would come from running the 2013 on HARD across the rough road section of the test track?

Are you questioning the means and methods that Ford uses to test and validate during R&D? Have you been employed by a major automotive manufacturer as a vehicle dynamics engineer in the past? If not and you are truly interested in the answer to the question you posed, I suggest you peruse the following list of related SAE periodicals. I'm sure you'll find something there that can further satisfy your quest for knowledge.

http://books.sae.org/ssearch?qt=vehicle%20dynamics%20testing%20methods& ofType=BOOK

Where is the WIN in this move for Ford?

If you fail to see the benefit of testing/analysis, then you missed an important component of development work. If the context of your question is marketing related and you only saw the article through the eyes of someone who cares little about what goes on behind the scenes and is only interested in the finished product - then I'm confused as to why you read it in the first place.

Originally Posted by radz28

Regarding the preview - when someone says a street tire, after heated, hooks like a slick - they lose most of their credibility with me. That is about the craziest thing I've read lately, especially coming from a car rep'. I guess will see the GT500 pull it's front tires when it's released on the OEM G2s... LOL.

Let's keep the conversation respectful, please...

It is crazy because you rephrased the quote only to serve the purpose of discrediting the person that never inferred as such. Here (again) is what was said...

Gene, wasn't talking about any "street" tire, he was referring to the G:2. You know, the one that Dragoneye was referring to when he stated...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=31

Does Roma's "discovery" validate Martindale's comment or do you need further proof? Did Roma somehow lose "credibility" as well?

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I simply don't want to hear the chest thumping here on Camaro5 and in the ZL1 section in particular. It is why I take particular delight in posting the wonderful negatives from the C&D article Are Camaro owners ROTFLing along with me --

Nobody was "chest thumping" in this thread. It was merely made clear that you were taking words and sentences out of context and then using what was left to "provide a wealth of material to devalue it."
If there were a Mustang forum as good as the Camaro5 forum and I was a regular there I would say the same thing about a Camaro ZL1 lover posting in the 2013 GT500 section. Take your bluster and BS back to your own forum.

This is Camaro5. Show some or go home to your Mustang forum.

Taking your ball and running home to your comfort zone isbelow even juvenile. It is a weak modus operandi for anyone on any side. Discussing data (and quotes) on their face shows you have the cognitive ability to rationally and fairly disseminate the appropriate subject matter objectively.

The article has Camaro owners ROTFLing is one more reason why the article is an epic fail for Ford.

You aren't a Judge from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals or the cover art director for the National Enquirer, are you?

I can respect all things mechanical for what they are. From an engineering perspective, it looks like Team ZL1 has indeed worked very hard to make this car one of GM's best ever. The car continues to impress. We all look forward to seeing each camp having the opportunity to pit their best. May each one of them push the other to be better.

Tob

[Deki]

^ Good post.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Tob

Taking your ball and running home to your comfort zone isbelow even juvenile. It is a weak modus operandi for anyone on any side. Discussing data (and quotes) on their face shows you have the cognitive ability to rationally and fairly disseminate the appropriate subject matter objectively.

You aren't a Judge from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals or the cover art director for the National Enquirer, are you?

Tob

Tob,

There is a huge difference between discussions and bickering. We'll discuss all day long. The bickering and chest thumping are absolutely not welcome here. It is no different than walking into a neighborhood bar where you are a complete stranger and watching a Bears game. Cheering for the Packers isn't a problem until you start screaming the Bears suck. For a period of time it is amusing. Then it becomes annoying. Eventually one of the regulars will show you the door or worse. Bad manners are bad manners.

An example would be If you're referring to Gene, your Google skills have failed you. He's a vehicle dynamics engineer and lead test driver at Ford Motor Company. I searched but could not find anywhere where Ford has dubbed him as a spokesperson. Mr. Martindale was the main Ford voice in the C&D article. We have no interest in bickering over petty

Am I the judge and jury here? Yes, I have taken on that roll based on the offensive behavior of a few guests and until the C5 moderators ask me to stop.

[Deki]

^ Pete, who are these people that have been coming in here saying the ZL1 sucks? You might be well respected here, but I really don't see why. Your behavior is pretty childish and arrogant.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Deki

^ Pete, who are these people that have been coming in here saying the ZL1 sucks? You might be well respected here, but I really don't see why. Your behavior is pretty childish and arrogant.

Is this your best shot?

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Deki

^ Pete, who are these people that have been coming in here saying the ZL1 sucks? You might be well respected here, but I really don't see why. Your behavior is pretty childish and arrogant.

But it's completely cool for You guys to come over here and take shots at us and the ZL1?

The point Pete is trying to make is completely lost on you. Hence why our intolerance for GT500 supporters / ZL1 detractors is so great.

We're sick and tired of you thinking you are entitled to have equal representation here.

If you need a place to champion the GT500 go to a mustang forum please.

Fair enough?

[The IOM Ninja]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The MRC is a new two wire system that is faster on the discharge than anything seen on the Ferrari to date. Translation - they react faster to computer inputs and can go from full charge HARD to discharged SOFT multiple times per second. The S/TC is integrated into all the on board systems: brakes, throttle, suspension, transmission and steering. This is more advanced than any system on any car built today. The selections of S/TC programs is ranges from daily drive to wet performance to leave me alone I'll do it my way and includes launch control and no lift shift.

Couple the sophisticated electronics with the rear sway bar geometry change, more rubber front and rear... and the porkiness disappears.

Last time I checked the Ferrari FF has BWI 3rd Generation Magnetorheological Dampers. Not to take away from the rest of that....

[Deki]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

But it's completely cool for You guys to come over here and take shots at us and the ZL1?

The point Pete is trying to make is completely lost on you. Hence why our intolerance for GT500 supporters / ZL1 detractors is so great.

We're sick and tired of you thinking you are entitled to have equal representation here.

If you need a place to champion the GT500 go to a mustang forum please.

Fair enough?

Painting everyone with the same brush, are we? Once again, who ever said the ZL1 sucks or that the GT500 is better? ZL1 detractors? You're against your own SS owners that chose to not buy a ZL1 until the competition releases it's product? To me, that is a smart decision. When I heard the 2011 GT was going to have close to equal horsepower to the SS, I decided to wait too, and I'm glad I did. I bought a 5.0 over an SS purely on the fact that it I fit better in it, otherwise I would have a 2011 SS in my garage next to my Z28. I'm not a brand loyal fan boy, and I'm a member on many forums of the previous cars that I have owned, this is the only one that has an US vs THEM mentality, and it's a shame some members are like that, because there is a lot of good information and sharing of ideas here.

And for the record, I am here because I love cars, V6, SS and the ZL1. I'm not here to change people's opinions of a GT500. I could care less what people think of the GT500, I don't own one. I could care less what people think even about the car that I do own, it doesn't affect me in any way. I think the ZL1 is amazing, even more so after seeing it in action. If it bothers you to have a person with a different brand car on your forum, I wonder how you would feel if I moved into the house next to you.

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by Deki

Painting everyone with the same brush, are we? Once again, who ever said the ZL1 sucks or that the GT500 is better? ZL1 detractors? You're against your own SS owners that chose to not buy a ZL1 until the competition releases it's product? To me, that is a smart decision. When I heard the 2011 GT was going to have close to equal horsepower to the SS, I decided to wait too, and I'm glad I did. I bought a 5.0 over an SS purely on the fact that it I fit better in it, otherwise I would have a 2011 SS in my garage next to my Z28. I'm not a brand loyal fan boy, and I'm a member on many forums of the previous cars that I have owned, this is the only one that has an US vs THEM mentality, and it's a shame some members are like that, because there is a lot of good information and sharing of ideas here.

And for the record, I am here because I love cars, V6, SS and the ZL1. I'm not here to change people's opinions of a GT500. I could care less what people think of the GT500, I don't own one. I could care less what people think even about the car that I do own, it doesn't affect me in any way. I think the ZL1 is amazing, even more so after seeing it in action. If it bothers you to have a person with a different brand car on your forum, I wonder how you would feel if I moved into the house next to you.

Up front, I fully admit these are simply my own observations, but I'm also a member of multiple forums: BMW, Corvette, Mustang, Camaro to name a few....all cars I own, have owned, or have come close to owning. However, Camaro5 is the only forum I visit regularly where I see so many people come to talk about cars other than Camaros; commonly Mustangs with some Dodges and imports sprinkled in there for good measure. If they do talk about Camaros, it is invariably about how their particular car relates to the Camaro.

I see more Mustang owners in this Camaro forum posting about Mustangs, than I have ever seen Camaro owners regularly/incessantly posting at stangnet, modularfords, or moddedmustangs about Camaros. Sure it happens, and there are always trolls, but not like it happens here at Camaro5. Likewise, I rarely see GTR or Viper fans constantly posting in Corvetteforums about their GTRs and Vipers, and I hardly see Audi guys coming to my BMW forums to endlessly "discuss" how the S4 stacks up against the 335i... again it happens, but not like it does here.

Personally, I also love Porsches, I live 20 minutes from the Porsche museum in Zuffenhausen. I visit the museum all the time and ogle the displays at the dealership across the street, but you will never find me on a Porsche forum where the majority of my posts are about how my Z06 performs relative to the latest 911 Carrera S.

There are a lot of guys who claim to be car enthusiasts, but curiously some of those same car enthusiasts have a singular focus on the cars they chose to talk about here, and it isn't always the Camaro.

Not saying that is you in particular, or that you aren't a general enthusiast of cars, but I certainly do not envy the moderators of this forum who have to sit a read through post after post about the merits of cars that aren't Camaros on Camaro5.com of all places.