Black ICE vs MACE 25mm

[SSTREETKING]

Some peoples take vendor love to whole another level that is almost scary black ice infidelity

[hapisok]

Originally Posted by SSTREETKING

Some peoples take vendor love to whole another level that is almost scary black ice infidelity

Haha... too funny

[MACE_ENG]

Hapisok,

Well done on the review/testing, it basically validates what we’ve been saying all alone and that is it’s the runner length and not so much the cooler manifold that give the gains

Originally Posted by MACE_ENG

As noted, the main reason the spacers work is not so much that they keep they manifold cool (which they certainly do) but is the fact that change the savaging properties of the manifold. In that the manifold is working more efficiently base on the engine's operating limits. This is based on Helmholtz resonance principle.

To put things into perspective, they could be made out of aluminum and still reel off similar figures on a dyno. Sure repeatability and power consistence on the other hand would fall but that is a different characteristic which is certainly influenced by material properties (thermal conductivity) of the spacer.insulator.

As for what size spacer? We have 3 sizes to give people options (6,12 and 25mm), primarily based on fitment consideration for various firewall, bonnet, intake constraints.

Thickness of a spacer/insulator with regards to runner length, is usually directly proportional to the gains down low, which is inversely proportional to the top end. Generally the latter isn't an issue at all, unless you plan on increasing the factory rev limit or consistently spending your time upper RPM band for competition work or fixated about peak power figures.

If your car is a daily driver, predominately spending most of your time in the lower to mid rev range then you would probably want to consider running the largest spacer/insulator you can.

Understandably we can be seen as being biased (however we do sell three different sizes), but the physics indicates that "optimal" lower RPM manifold scavenging is achieved with longer runner, while the inverse is true with short runners. Both with the same diameter runners of course

Hope this helps
Steve

http://camaro5.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=404

Originally Posted by Ivan @ Southwest Speed

Wow...this is awesome.

Really fantastic to get this sort of info from the streets and not just from us vendors. It's one thing to hear it from all of us but when it comes from the customers I feel that it speaks volumes more than any of us ever could.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to share this with everybody here.

What a great forum.
Ivan @ Southwest Speed

Agreed! If testing is fairly conducted this is definitely a good thing for enthusiasts

Originally Posted by SC2150

Well done. We respect the Mace products as we do any other porven competing products that we know are good and perform as advertised, direct competitor or not we post it like we see it and some dont want to here that (were talking all products we manufacture or endorse). When we praise a competitors product it has earned it, and the same as when we point out those falling short. Any that know us well know we do our evaluations based upon actual findings and dont play brand or corporate politics as so many do. I know many think it makes no sense to acknolwledge anothers products as good or great when they compete against us and then the personal ego's pop up and it can turn into blind side taking and that is never good for any involved. But as with other products we have praised, the Mace units perform as advertised and we respect them and what they have accomplished. You cant go worng with either.

Likewise Tracy

To elaborate what Tracy has mentioned there is no right or wrong product here in this context, it just depends on your driving requirements as I’ve mentioned many times over

Originally Posted by Kmorpheus

I feel the Black Ice-Olator is the perfect fit for me, Really only drive my car on hot sunny days and the heat is a power killer.

Conservatively speaking, the reduction in heat transfer between the products based on their current designs and thickness are about the same. I say this as the black glass reinforced material used would conduct heat better than the material we use. Also being black has a tendency to absorb more radiant thermal energy then something of a lighter color. It’s for this reason black cars tend to heat up quicker in the sun then lighter colored ones.

Originally Posted by Mike Norris

Interesting test for sure. I would guess the mid-range gains are from the longer runner length. Plus it seems you have some quite extensive mods compared to what most folks are going to do to their cars.

What I would like to do is a test that more fits 90% of our customers from what I have seen. By that I mean is completely stock or minimal mods (VMax TB & CAI, No Tune, No Headers). This would be comparable to the testing I did for VMax and I think relate to a large portion of the buying market looking at these pieces.

Since Tracy was nice enough to send an ICE-olator out for free to test, maybe MACE would not mind sending one of the 25mm units out to me to test on a CAI/TB only car

If not, are there any US dealers for the MACE 25mm spacer kit? I would like to buy local (US) if at all possible.

Thanks!!

Mike Norris

Mike,

If anything the 25mm manifold insulator would work better on a stock car then the thinner varieties. I say this as with aftermarket gear such as an exhaust system, better intake etc, they tend to work best in the upper rev range. This is in contrast to the factory stuff which is restrictive higher in the rev range.

Therefore putting on an insulator which is more biased towards gains top end on a restrictive factory setup is counterproductive, unlike a thicker insulator which is more efficient down low being more compatible with the restrictive factory gear as it still flows relatively well in the lower to mid RPM ranges.

As for testing, I’m easy

The only catch is now days are that we need a bond for parts, which is refunded once the results are in.

Why? Well early on in the piece I actually sent a C5 member 3 sets of our insulators for testing (6, 12 and 25mm) for free. Claimed financial hardship, I offered to pay to on forward these items onto another enthusiast for testing, never heard from them again, then found out there were SELLING these insulator kit for $150 each!!!!!! And no I never saw a single dime from these sales.

Originally Posted by Kmorpheus

Vmax just needs to make a 25 MM Black Ice Plate. But I can't see them doing that to Mace. But what I can see is someone else doing it to both Vmax and Mace. It would be nice if they would combine their products into the Mace\Vmax Performace Heat Isolator.

Who knows what the future may bring I guess, honorable people are a rarity these days :( . All I can say in the present is that the heat transfer/reduction difference between the two products at the same thickness is negligible. Unless you wrap the manifold around with an insulated collar, you still have a noticeable amount of heat transfer due to convection and radiation. You just have to look at the surface area of the manifold which is still exposed, to appreciate where I’m coming from.

[hapisok]

So I stand corrected. The insulator will make even more of a drastic increase. And for those who aren't as heavily modded as myself...win win

[Mike Norris]

From MACE_ENG "Mike, If anything the 25mm manifold insulator would work better on a stock car then the thinner varieties. I say this as with aftermarket gear such as an exhaust system, better intake etc, they tend to work best in the upper rev range. This is in contrast to the factory stuff which is restrictive higher in the rev range.

Therefore putting on an insulator which is more biased towards gains top end on a restrictive factory setup is counterproductive, unlike a thicker insulator which is more efficient down low being more compatible with the restrictive factory gear as it still flows relatively well in the lower to mid RPM ranges.

As for testing, I’m easy

The only catch is now days are that we need a bond for parts, which is refunded once the results are in.

Why? Well early on in the piece I actually sent a C5 member 3 sets of our insulators for testing (6, 12 and 25mm) for free. Claimed financial hardship, I offered to pay to on forward these items onto another enthusiast for testing, never heard from them again, then found out there were SELLING these insulator kit for $150 each!!!!!! And no I never saw a single dime from these sales."

I understand about trusting folks for sure and that is why I said I would buy a set if need be. I only mentioned a free set as Tracy sent one of the VMax items out no problem.

I am only looking into getting a 25mm version right now as that what was tested here. If you want to make me a deal on all three I will consider it for sure. Feel free to PM me if you want. I am not looking into proving anything one way or the other, just curious as.

Let me know and thanks.

Mike Norris

[hapisok]

Mike,

Are you planning to do back to back pulls or provide ECU relearn time? I don't recall the process in which you tested the black ice...just curious about your plan of attack to compare these. There has been discussion before about the gains from the various sizes but nothing has been shown yet due to the issue Steve mentioned earlier. Can't wait to see what you come up with...

[bmorecam]

Originally Posted by MACE_ENG

Why? Well early on in the piece I actually sent a C5 member 3 sets of our insulators for testing (6, 12 and 25mm) for free. Claimed financial hardship, I offered to pay to on forward these items onto another enthusiast for testing, never heard from them again, then found out there were SELLING these insulator kit for $150 each!!!!!! And no I never saw a single dime from these sales.

I remember that. all I can say is SAD.

[Mike Norris]

Originally Posted by hapisok

Mike,

Are you planning to do back to back pulls or provide ECU relearn time? I don't recall the process in which you tested the black ice...just curious about your plan of attack to compare these. There has been discussion before about the gains from the various sizes but nothing has been shown yet due to the issue Steve mentioned earlier. Can't wait to see what you come up with...

Initially it will be back to back and I can then do driving and retest with the MACE on there. From what I have seen judging on the fuel trims that there is little if no learning going to happen with just the isolator swap. My testing from back to back and then after driven with the VMax piece was negligible, maybe picked up 1-2 HP and TQ at a few spots.

Waiting to hear back from MACE and we will go from there

Mike Norris

[hapisok]

Originally Posted by bmorecam

I remember that. all I can say is SAD.

yeah, that was BS. i was really looking forward to the results of the testing too. the previous member was hyping it all up and then it turned into an EPIC FAIL! and sadly at the expense to a vendor trying to bring us options while we were suffering from a lull in performance mod's. but moving on...things are on the up and up. just glad to see that we have options still available.

[hapisok]

Originally Posted by Mike Norris

Initially it will be back to back and I can then do driving and retest with the MACE on there. From what I have seen judging on the fuel trims that there is little if no learning going to happen with just the isolator swap. My testing from back to back and then after driven with the VMax piece was negligible, maybe picked up 1-2 HP and TQ at a few spots.

Waiting to hear back from MACE and we will go from there

Mike Norris

right on...

i've been monitoring my fuel trims and they don't seem to change much other than the effects of the weather when swapping between the 2. but even with the black ice...after a couple miles of road time you could tell it there was more from the mod than at mile 1. i don't think the fuel trims are changed dramatically, but there is somewhat of a relearn process with the fuel mapping and IAT's as time goes on. maybe im blowing smoke out my a55, but this is from what i've experienced as a user from both insulators and also my understanding of how the ECU operates. if im totally wrong, please correct me as i'd rather know for sure than make an guesstimate.

[bmorecam]

The only time when fuel trims go back to relearn is when the ecm has been reset, either by negative battery off, fuse 5 and 20, or by simply loading a tune. I been monitoring my fuel trims for quite some time now and vararam guys are right. It take about 30 miles for 90% of relearn then it finish off after 100 miles. One way to tell if your fuel trims has finished learning is to look at your STFT. It should stay within 0-3 -/+ After 100 miles, if the STFT is still swinging widely then this usually mean that the fuel trim is still learning or you have a leak.

I did forget to mention that when we install a intake or whatever else that might change the airflow, what happens is that the fuel trim goes into compensation mode. Is not relearning but rather compensating until it can't compensate any longer. Its very important to keep fuel trims in check because it will affect your air fuel ratio on wot. Theres alot more to this but i wont make you guys go to sleep with all this brain wrapper. A good rule of thumb is to make sure the LTFT is within 0-5 -/+

[hapisok]

as usual...skool is in session. thanks jay

[MACE_ENG]

Mike,

I’ve given it some thought over the day and to be honest I don’t feel that I can justify sinking anymore $$$ for free testing with our product.

The main reason is the fact that there has already been heaps of feedback from enthusiasts about this family of products in the market place. If people take the time to CAREFULLY read reviews and not buy into the “theory/spin” that each manufacture presents about how their product works, I’ve very confident that people will make the right choice, based on their genuine needs without feeling underwhelmed

To recap on some of the testing in the past, please check out the links below

http://camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181086
http://camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188097

We’ve also been selling this exact product for a year now, so we’ve also got a heap of our own testing done as well.

And yes we’ve also developed tested a black isolator style design about a year ago as shown by the record below from our local patent office

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/a...tails_arrows=0

Also I’m sure more and more testing will arise from enthusiasts over time as well. If you’re one of those enthusiasts and are happy to pay, I’m happy to help.

I hope you understand where I’m coming from.

If you have any questions/concerns please don’t hesitate to ask.

Kindest Regards,
Steve

[bmorecam]

I have to admit.. there has been plenty of "vendor free" testing, twice done by me and twice done by aaron(hapi). which to me is way more important than vendor performed tests. Vendors actually need to sell these products, us members, don't get nothing out of it but maybe a free part which is all good to me The conclusion at the end says that both vmax and mace insulators does what they are supposed to with each slightly having a little advantage over the other. I don't understand what else could be proved here. I think we should all move on knowing that we have great products to choose from 2 great company. at the end of the day we are the one's who are going to choose what we think is best for our cars regardless of what anyone say. I don't really think numbers really matter to some peoples as we can already see clearly.