OBX Longtube Headers

[mikeSS]

Originally Posted by LIM3

What's the life span of the OBX compared to the SW or ARH

i personally could not answer the question. but from what people say they do work and last fine. but i do see sometimes people have problems with warrnety on them.

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by LIM3

What's the life span of the OBX compared to the SW or ARH

SW and ARH both uses superior 304 steel and will last longer then any other part on your car will. The cheap chinese 304 steel OBX uses, most people in the steel industry won't even touch. If you are one of these people who want keep the car till your death and pass it on to your kids or grandkids, then go ARH or SW. If you like to trade or sell your cars after a few years then you'll never tell the difference.

You may be thinking how can the two be different if they are both the same grade, 304. American steel manufacturers have more strict and higher quality standards then chinese manufacturers do. The steel chinese uses would not be able to pass the strenuous tests american made steel has to pass in order to be qualified as 304. And thus the quality and durability between the two are different.

[ss/rs-matt]

Hey! This all looks so familiar...lol. Hey OP great choice on your headers. I love mine, install was cake, quality is excellent and the extra sound and power is just awesome. I've got about 2k or 3k miles on mine so far and absolutely zero issues. Excellent bang for buck!
Someone asked where to get these, I purchased mine from Erik at Lashway Motorsports, he is a forum sponsor.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by LIM3

now how much longer could the high priced brands actually last ? thats a question worth answering. any idea any one ?

the brands themselves? they'll last just fine. the question really should be... how much longer will the Camaro Tax be added to performance parts?

Originally Posted by mikeSS

i live in MI, and i know people pretty high up in GM and chrysler. cant tell you how much they hate other counties at times. for things like these involving car parts.

Can you tell us how much they love other countries for making the parts that ae assembled into our cars? lol

Yes the car is assembled in Canada, but how many of the individual components are manufactured in China, Taiwan, Japan, Mexico, US, etc?

Originally Posted by mikeSS

i mean technically speaking, i guess they are not knock offs. but again they look exactly the same, and cost half the price. honestly they look so similar that it would be a easy win in court if kooks were to sue.
but on the flip side of that, couldnt kooks be sued for price gouging?


anyone wanna bet me that kooks hates OBX? maybe there is a reason behind that....

guys use some common sense. stop looking at this in the eyes on a consumer and start to in the eyes of a business owner. who works very hard to keep his company going and provides jobs for the working class.

I believe that Kooks and other companies make a reliable product. however, I believe there is still a "Camaro Tax" on a lot of products out there.

(and Mike, this isnt a personal attack on you, you just happened to bring up good points... )





but i digress...



I said when the first headers first hit the market, the LS3 is not some magically different engine from previous cars. There's even more room in the engine bay than there was for 4th gens and vettes. These guys have been making headers for decades... this isnt new technology. but yet, we are still paying the premium for our parts.


However, this debate did not start with OBX and Kooks (or BBK). its been going on for a while... just the names have changed. any 4th gen guys out there will remember that Pacesetter has almost always had the price for LT's at around $500.00 while everyone else was $800 and up. granted a few companies had some truly unique designs (Hooker had a slip-fit #1 primary so you didnt have to disconnect the steering shaft to install them), but in general, the only real difference was the length of the header after the collector and the flange (if any).

Everyone who bought the higher priced headers would always say to stay away from pacesetters, because they were a lower quality... yet there were plenty of people buying them and never having an issue.

fact of the matter is, all LTs are going to give you more power, some might make 2hp more or less than the next one (not including primary sizes).

Buy what you want. Its your car, you are building it for YOU, not for somebody online.

[mikeSS]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

the brands themselves? they'll last just fine. the question really should be... how much longer will the Camaro Tax be added to performance parts?


Can you tell us how much they love other countries for making the parts that ae assembled into our cars? lol

Yes the car is assembled in Canada, but how many of the individual components are manufactured in China, Taiwan, Japan, Mexico, US, etc?



I believe that Kooks and other companies make a reliable product. however, I believe there is still a "Camaro Tax" on a lot of products out there.

(and Mike, this isnt a personal attack on you, you just happened to bring up good points... )





but i digress...



I said when the first headers first hit the market, the LS3 is not some magically different engine from previous cars. There's even more room in the engine bay than there was for 4th gens and vettes. These guys have been making headers for decades... this isnt new technology. but yet, we are still paying the premium for our parts.

.

well yes they love them for cheap labor. nothing special about how they make it or who makes it. you will notice that the very expensive cars have less and less parts made all over the world. because if you ask me the more parts made by the car maker the better.

also any market like performance part market is always going to come with a premium price tag. for its just a harder market to make money. you cant just sue them really, its there market and there price. if thats was the case the gas companies would be sued lol. but they are not

i know how much money it cost for kooks or ARH to stay in business, coming from my father who owns his own company. it would be very frustrating to deal with OBX in the header business. its down economy for america and know that have to deal with some chinese made stuff slowly destroying there market.

[LIM3]

I want to keep this car for a long time and probably forever.
But in the mean time I can add the OBX to get that HP that I'm looking for. I could just swap them for ARH later on if anything.

We will see.

As forthe OP Congrats on the new mod and take that puppy to the track !

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

well yes they love them for cheap labor. nothing special about how they make it or who makes it. you will notice that the very expensive cars have less and less parts made all over the world. because if you ask me the more parts made by the car maker the better.

There's a difference between the camaro and very expensive cars. the supercars and exotics have a lot more time and money invested into a single car (with no trim/engine options). and most parts are all made in house.

But we aren't talking about very expensive cars, we're talking about chevy camaros.

also any market like performance part market is always going to come with a premium price tag. for its just a harder market to make money. you cant just sue them really, its there market and there price. if thats was the case the gas companies would be sued lol. but they are not

I understand the reason behind the market prices, but that doesnt mean I agree with it... lol. and gas companies have and do get sued for price gouging.

i know how much money it cost for kooks or ARH to stay in business, coming from my father who owns his own company. it would be very frustrating to deal with OBX in the header business. its down economy for america and know that have to deal with some chinese made stuff slowly destroying there market.

but at what point does the decision get made to sell fewer quantities of a product at a higher price vs selling larger quantities at a lower price?

[mikeSS]

Camarosspike, you read the first comment and didn't really give a valid responds. you are right about what you said,BUT you asked me to say why GM "loves" the global parts and global assembling idea. the answer always comes to money, and GM like any other business loves to save money and make money. again they love other countries because its cheaper.. do you agree? its really nothing against GM every american car maker does it. but still the fact remains.

second comment, i guess i should say they don't get sued enough to really make a impact in what they do. if price was such a issue with headers like gas is then why dont people sue kooks and ARH for price gouging ? because there is a certain percentage where companies want to make profit and still have it affordable to people. sure there are people who cant afford the price, same thing with Ipods, so thats why they get the song MP3 player. kooks has to pay taxes, american government regulations, insurance, testing, etc and still wants make that profit. OBX does not have this. simple as that. my point is that kooks headers is a "luxury" item. its not made to be afford to everyone. a 300 dollar laptop is made to be afford, not a 2500 mac book pro.

but lets be honest, look at how many people are running kooks and ARH headers. so the price isn't that bad is it ? look at how much cam kits cost. about the same. they run about the same value.

[Avenging Orange]

[QUOTE=ss/rs-matt;4801511]Hey! This all looks so familiar...lol.

No kiddin! Except this time my posts and a few others mysteriously disappeared............And I didnt even say anything derogatory!
But I will say again....I do love my OBX and I'll be dam**d if I will let anyone tell me I cant talk good about them!

[ewoolsey]

I just wanna clearly state that I did not mean to offend anyone! I said something I shouldn't have said! I'm happy for all you kooks arh and stainless owners! Good for you guys sometime us OBX guys just need a little love

[MarylandSpeed]

Well..I guess this proves..even if I stay out a thread..the subject still causes an argument.

At the end of the day this is pretty simple. If you don't want to spend money on American made headers, and lowest price is the biggest factor in your header decison, then yes you have options, including overseas copies. It's your money, do what you want and have fun modding your car. I am not here to hurt anyone's feelings, make them feel bad about what they bought, or whatever. However everything with this is not happy unicorns jumping over rainbows. The reason they are cheap is they took another companies design, and copied it using inferior materials and workmanship overseas. No matter how cheap they are, that fact is unavoidable and the 800lbs gorilla in every one of these threads.

So with that in mind...

A.) Don't expect to go parading around the forums about how great they are, and how you saved so much money and not expect a response. The people who already have a set, or are only gonna spend $500 willl agree with you, and cheer you on for thumbing your nose at the chinese header haters. However there are also a lot of people pay good money for a premium product, and do not take kindly to having people brag about how great a cheap knock off is. This is not limited to headers, pretty much every retail market I know on, it is frowned upon to support knockoffs or brag about purchasing them. It's like going an a sunglass forum and bragging about your fake Oakley's.

B.) In terms of build quality, they are not the same as the premium headers they copies..or even in the ball park. We are talking exhaust pipe here..so it is pretty easy for the stuff to be functional and do the job...but that does not mean the quality is there. It's easy to see shiny headers and think "OMGZ..pretty!", but if you know what you are looking at..there is a big difference.

I will be at Camaro5 fest and have both brands on display. I had both at Camaro5fest last year, and will this year too..and lets say after seeing both..no one was asking me about how to get the cheaper set.

Lastly, there is no "Camaro Tax". Maybe we want to have an ego trip and think that somehow the Camaro is such a hot market that vendors can charge whatever they want and the poor customer gets screwed. The reality is, this is the most competitive market in the aftermarket right now. There are competitors crawling all over one another to get business. Additionally, with most of this happening online, most customers don't care as much about service, and often let whoever has the absolute lowest price dictate who they buy from. If you a a customer, you have a lot more pricing leverage owning a Camaro, which is made in pretty high numbers than say...a SSR, Challenger, or LT1 Camaro where there are many less options parts wise, and fewer vendors fighting for your business.

There are 5 premium header companies out there, and pretty much all of their pricing is within $300 of one another. These are VERY competitive companies, and if one could undercut the other by $400 and run a profitable business, it would happen. The problem is, you can't drop prices that much unless you off shore production..and normally you take a quality and reputation hit. People can buy a $300 set of no name knock offs on ebay..and if the hardware sucks, and they need to be hammered to fit..whatever..it's what you expect. Buy budget name brand headers made in China, and there is a fit issue, not only do you expect a higher level of service than you would the ebay headers..but now there is also the reputation hit from customers being suspicious some of your products are made overseas.

Additionally..do some price research. Kooks headers, and catted connection pipes for a Camaro run $1349 (minimum advertised price).

The same set up for each vehicle below runs-

Dodge Challenger- $1500
Pontiac G8- $1349
LS1 4th Gen Camaro- $1500
C6 Corvette- $1700
Shelby Mustang- $1400
2005-2010 Mustang GT- $1300 (these are much smaller headers).

Additionally in terms of premium, US made headers, Kooks is on the cheaper end. The bottom line is if you want to design your own header in the US, with as much US sourced material as possible, and make it in a non job shop/contract environment (meaning all you make is exhaust, not like lawn furniture when things are slow), then these prices are what you have to charge.

[MarylandSpeed]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

but at what point does the decision get made to sell fewer quantities of a product at a higher price vs selling larger quantities at a lower price?

This is a slippery slope. For instance to sell more headers means you have to buy more benders (see what one of those costs), hire more employees, pay more taxes, and so forth. There are other things like most of the header companies I know are always struggling to hire enough welders because there are only so many skilled ones.

And some things are inflexible and not subject to scales of ecomony. For instance, doubling business will not make your cost of labor do down. A header will still take the same time to weld, and the welder will make the same money per hour. The price of stainless steel is inflexible. Additionally, we have a government system that tightens regulations, and removes incentives as a business becomes bigger.

It becomes a game of deminishing returns. Think of it this way. Imagine you own a business, and someone told you they had a plan to double sales. However to double sales, you had to cut your profit margin in half, double your manufactuering staffing, invest $250K in machinery, and find a bigger building. Suddenly double sales becomes a loss.

Lastly throw in that this is a market largely governed by discretionary spending. I know every time gas goes up, or the government threatens to shut down, our sales go down with it. When you add a lot of overhead, that hurts your ability to rightsize to meet demand.

[papawattz]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Well..I guess this proves..even if I stay out a thread..the subject still causes an argument.

At the end of the day this is pretty simple. If you don't want to spend money on American made headers, and lowest price is the biggest factor in your header decison, then yes you have options, including overseas copies. It's your money, do what you want and have fun modding your car. I am not here to hurt anyone's feelings, make them feel bad about what they bought, or whatever. However everything with this is not happy unicorns jumping over rainbows. The reason they are cheap is they took another companies design, and copied it using inferior materials and workmanship overseas. No matter how cheap they are, that fact is unavoidable and the 800lbs gorilla in every one of these threads.

So with that in mind...

A.) Don't expect to go parading around the forums about how great they are, and how you saved so much money and not expect a response. The people who already have a set, or are only gonna spend $500 willl agree with you, and cheer you on for thumbing your nose at the chinese header haters. However there are also a lot of people pay good money for a premium product, and do not take kindly to having people brag about how great a cheap knock off is. This is not limited to headers, pretty much every retail market I know on, it is frowned upon to support knockoffs or brag about purchasing them. It's like going an a sunglass forum and bragging about your fake Oakley's.

B.) In terms of build quality, they are not the same as the premium headers they copies..or even in the ball park. We are talking exhaust pipe here..so it is pretty easy for the stuff to be functional and do the job...but that does not mean the quality is there. It's easy to see shiny headers and think "OMGZ..pretty!", but if you know what you are looking at..there is a big difference.

I will be at Camaro5 fest and have both brands on display. I had both at Camaro5fest last year, and will this year too..and lets say after seeing both..no one was asking me about how to get the cheaper set.

Lastly, there is no "Camaro Tax". Maybe we want to have an ego trip and think that somehow the Camaro is such a hot market that vendors can charge whatever they want and the poor customer gets screwed. The reality is, this is the most competitive market in the aftermarket right now. There are competitors crawling all over one another to get business. Additionally, with most of this happening online, most customers don't care as much about service, and often let whoever has the absolute lowest price dictate who they buy from. If you a a customer, you have a lot more pricing leverage owning a Camaro, which is made in pretty high numbers than say...a SSR, Challenger, or LT1 Camaro where there are many less options parts wise, and fewer vendors fighting for your business.

There are 5 premium header companies out there, and pretty much all of their pricing is within $300 of one another. These are VERY competitive companies, and if one could undercut the other by $400 and run a profitable business, it would happen. The problem is, you can't drop prices that much unless you off shore production..and normally you take a quality and reputation hit. People can buy a $300 set of no name knock offs on ebay..and if the hardware sucks, and they need to be hammered to fit..whatever..it's what you expect. Buy budget name brand headers made in China, and there is a fit issue, not only do you expect a higher level of service than you would the ebay headers..but now there is also the reputation hit from customers being suspicious some of your products are made overseas.

Additionally..do some price research. Kooks headers, and catted connection pipes for a Camaro run $1349 (minimum advertised price).

The same set up for each vehicle below runs-

Dodge Challenger- $1500
Pontiac G8- $1349
LS1 4th Gen Camaro- $1500
C6 Corvette- $1700
Shelby Mustang- $1400
2005-2010 Mustang GT- $1300 (these are much smaller headers).

Additionally in terms of premium, US made headers, Kooks is on the cheaper end. The bottom line is if you want to design your own header in the US, with as much US sourced material as possible, and make it in a non job shop/contract environment (meaning all you make is exhaust, not like lawn furniture when things are slow), then these prices are what you have to charge.

I just recieved my Kooks by the way,very nice! Also I am glad I made the decision to spend the extra money on the American Made header. I was considering the OBX's, but realized that one, I make a very good living and get compensated well for the work that I do, so why not buy something from a manufacturer that Hires (and I'm sure, pays well ) there American workers that also do a quality job! I preach all the time "buy American" and well, I need to practice what I preach!(I know My Camaro is Made in Canada, but Canada might as well be our 51st state...LOL) Besides the profits from my car go back to GM, an American company. I'm telling you we all need to wake up, and realize if we keep turning our backs on American Manufacturers and keep buying Chinese products were all gonna be hurtin'!! Our economy will fallOk I'm off my soap box now, I know nobody has the right to tell another person what to buy with his/hers money, but come on people how long do think the USA will continue to prosper when all our jobs disappeer!!!

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

Camarosspike, you read the first comment and didn't really give a valid responds. you are right about what you said,BUT you asked me to say why GM "loves" the global parts and global assembling idea. the answer always comes to money, and GM like any other business loves to save money and make money. again they love other countries because its cheaper.. do you agree? its really nothing against GM every american car maker does it. but still the fact remains.

Sorry I didn't address your comments completely.
I agree everyone loves cheaper stuff. Money makes the world go round. My comments were more towards the "buy american over anything else" comments.

The LS3 and L99's are built in St Catherines, Ontario. The tremec is built in Mexico and the car itself is assembled in Canada. How many parts are already made in china because they are "cheap, low quality pieces"?

I support buying american before outsourcing. But considering how much of the car is already produced overseas, one more part doesnt bother me. That being said, thats my opinion. I'm a bang for the buck guy. I'll most likely buy a set of used kooks or ARH headers when the time comes, but it goes back to the comment about pacesetter headers with 4th gens and their price difference.


second comment, i guess i should say they don't get sued enough to really make a impact in what they do. if price was such a issue with headers like gas is then why dont people sue kooks and ARH for price gouging ? because there is a certain percentage where companies want to make profit and still have it affordable to people. sure there are people who cant afford the price, same thing with Ipods, so thats why they get the song MP3 player. kooks has to pay taxes, american government regulations, insurance, testing, etc and still wants make that profit. OBX does not have this. simple as that. my point is that kooks headers is a "luxury" item. its not made to be afford to everyone. a 300 dollar laptop is made to be afford, not a 2500 mac book pro.

I agree with you about them not getting sued enough.
I know at the end of the day, the companies need to make a profit. (and I dont care for ipods or i-anything for that matter...too much of a blind zombie mass effect. not saying the technology isn't great, just that its not for me).

but lets be honest, look at how many people are running kooks and ARH headers. so the price isn't that bad is it ? look at how much cam kits cost. about the same. they run about the same value.

I agree wholeheartedly at the numbers. but the other side of that argument is that of the options available (excluding OBX), kooks is one of the lower priced arrangements.

And there are dozens (probably hundreds) of threads on here asking "what headers are the best". Most everyone supports what they have and there will always be people who "follow the leader". I've seen it happen hundreds of times on here. Thats one of the good (and sometimes bad) things about forums.
there will always be a couple issues with any product (100% reliablity/quality is unattainable), but by and by, just think about how many lurkers/guests view this site just to see what other people are putting on their cars.

and cam kits... we'll discuss that later...lol

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Well..I guess this proves..even if I stay out a thread..the subject still causes an argument.

At the end of the day this is pretty simple. If you don't want to spend money on American made headers, and lowest price is the biggest factor in your header decison, then yes you have options, including overseas copies. It's your money, do what you want and have fun modding your car. I am not here to hurt anyone's feelings, make them feel bad about what they bought, or whatever. However everything with this is not happy unicorns jumping over rainbows. The reason they are cheap is they took another companies design, and copied it using inferior materials and workmanship overseas. No matter how cheap they are, that fact is unavoidable and the 800lbs gorilla in every one of these threads.

So with that in mind...

A.) Don't expect to go parading around the forums about how great they are, and how you saved so much money and not expect a response. The people who already have a set, or are only gonna spend $500 willl agree with you, and cheer you on for thumbing your nose at the chinese header haters. However there are also a lot of people pay good money for a premium product, and do not take kindly to having people brag about how great a cheap knock off is. This is not limited to headers, pretty much every retail market I know on, it is frowned upon to support knockoffs or brag about purchasing them. It's like going an a sunglass forum and bragging about your fake Oakley's.

B.) In terms of build quality, they are not the same as the premium headers they copies..or even in the ball park. We are talking exhaust pipe here..so it is pretty easy for the stuff to be functional and do the job...but that does not mean the quality is there. It's easy to see shiny headers and think "OMGZ..pretty!", but if you know what you are looking at..there is a big difference.

I will be at Camaro5 fest and have both brands on display. I had both at Camaro5fest last year, and will this year too..and lets say after seeing both..no one was asking me about how to get the cheaper set.

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Lastly, there is no "Camaro Tax". Maybe we want to have an ego trip and think that somehow the Camaro is such a hot market that vendors can charge whatever they want and the poor customer gets screwed. The reality is, this is the most competitive market in the aftermarket right now. There are competitors crawling all over one another to get business. Additionally, with most of this happening online, most customers don't care as much about service, and often let whoever has the absolute lowest price dictate who they buy from. If you are a customer, you have a lot more pricing leverage owning a Camaro, which is made in pretty high numbers than say...a SSR, Challenger, or LT1 Camaro where there are many less options parts wise, and fewer vendors fighting for your business.

There are 5 premium header companies out there, and pretty much all of their pricing is within $300 of one another. These are VERY competitive companies, and if one could undercut the other by $400 and run a profitable business, it would happen. The problem is, you can't drop prices that much unless you off shore production..and normally you take a quality and reputation hit. People can buy a $300 set of no name knock offs on ebay..and if the hardware sucks, and they need to be hammered to fit..whatever..it's what you expect. Buy budget name brand headers made in China, and there is a fit issue, not only do you expect a higher level of service than you would the ebay headers..but now there is also the reputation hit from customers being suspicious some of your products are made overseas.

Additionally..do some price research. Kooks headers, and catted connection pipes for a Camaro run $1349 (minimum advertised price).

The same set up for each vehicle below runs-

Dodge Challenger- $1500
Pontiac G8- $1349
LS1 4th Gen Camaro- $1500
C6 Corvette- $1700
Shelby Mustang- $1400
2005-2010 Mustang GT- $1300 (these are much smaller headers).

Additionally in terms of premium, US made headers, Kooks is on the cheaper end. The bottom line is if you want to design your own header in the US, with as much US sourced material as possible, and make it in a non job shop/contract environment (meaning all you make is exhaust, not like lawn furniture when things are slow), then these prices are what you have to charge.

which companies are you considering as the 5 premium ones? jw (you can pm if you would like )
And what would you say about Doug Thorley or Pacesetter headers for the 5th gen that are running for ~$800 right now?

I agree that a $300 china knockoff most likely isnt up to the same quality. (I say most likely, because I don't have two identical cars to install the two different ones into to compare longevity).

I'm not saying that everyone should drop their price to $300.00 for a set of headers. I'm not even saying that anyone should drop their price that low.

What I am saying is that there are (IMO) reputable companies offering the same product (not identical/knockoff) for a lower price.
and I'm not suggesting that the higher priced companies go and lower their prices. (doubt that would work anyway...lol) I just find it odd that two different companies with the same product both claim "quality and reliability" as their strong points are priced a good amount different. Competition is good for us all tho.
The power gains on headers between different companies is negligible (excluding primary sizes).




I'm not knocking anyones choice of mods. as you and many others have said before.



Its your car. Build it how you want.

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

This is a slippery slope. For instance to sell more headers means you have to buy more benders (see what one of those costs), hire more employees, pay more taxes, and so forth. There are other things like most of the header companies I know are always struggling to hire enough welders because there are only so many skilled ones.

And some things are inflexible and not subject to scales of ecomony. For instance, doubling business will not make your cost of labor do down. A header will still take the same time to weld, and the welder will make the same money per hour. The price of stainless steel is inflexible. Additionally, we have a government system that tightens regulations, and removes incentives as a business becomes bigger.

It becomes a game of deminishing returns. Think of it this way. Imagine you own a business, and someone told you they had a plan to double sales. However to double sales, you had to cut your profit margin in half, double your manufactuering staffing, invest $250K in machinery, and find a bigger building. Suddenly double sales becomes a loss.

Lastly throw in that this is a market largely governed by discretionary spending. I know every time gas goes up, or the government threatens to shut down, our sales go down with it. When you add a lot of overhead, that hurts your ability to rightsize to meet demand.

I agree completely on the issues that manufacturers and vendors are facing, but some companies seem to be able to make it work.