The ultimate facepalm moment. Like...I don't have words.

[Rangore]

Nah...not waiting on it to be legal. I see it as pointless to do and a waste of money. We all have our things we enjoy...this is simply my opinion about marijuana.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Hammer St. James

IMHO, booze kills far more than a joint ever did. Legalize it and it will save the police to go after the murderers and rapists and not three numbnuts who like to be high while they clean carpets. Shit man, I'd have to be high to do that mundane crap too.

Nothing that can be proven, because one is legal and instantly detectible, the other is illegal and not. IMO, that's a bad discussion point. And have to be high to hold a job? Maybe if they spent less time smoking and more time studying, they wouldn't be cleaning carpets. But... I can't prove that either.

"Probable cause" is pretty open to interpretation. I would be willing to bet, that every person reading this post would have assumed those guys to be smoking weed without Adam having to say so, just by the mention of them going outside, and coming back in stinking of body spray. In that case, I would agree with "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime" (which is what smoking weed is).

As for alcohol being more dangerous than pot... probably. But a lot of smokers that I know are convinced that being high doesn't impair them in any way at all, which is bullspittle, although I don't think they are impaired as much as a drunk. However, I see a lot of other problems with pot being legalized. They already can't keep control of drunk drivers. Now you've got more high drivers? Or, because it's not legal, you've got people out at the bar, getting hammered AND high, and THEN driving home. You're just adding one problem on top of another.

My BIGGEST problem with it, is that if a drunk gets pulled over, you can prove on the spot that he's drunk. You can't do that with pot. A drug test would only show that you've smoked in the past few weeks. No problem right? Because it's legal. But what's that you say? Their eyes maybe are bloodshot, or they're having a hard time focusing? Pretty much happens to me when I'm sleep deprived. You can't PROVE they are high at the time.

That all said, if they could fix some of these problems (which they can't right now), I would probably be "more ok" with it. I know people who smoke. They do it at home. They don't bother anyone. They have jobs and are never high at work. No problem with that at all. But legalizing one more substance for availability to the people that can't be responsible? I don't see a rational point for it. Unfortunately we are all "punished" for the screw-ups of morons. :(

Not an attack on anyone's opinions or beliefs. I just like thought-out discussions.

[Hammer St. James]

Originally Posted by kalimus

Nothing that can be proven, because one is legal and instantly detectible, the other is illegal and not. IMO, that's a bad discussion point. And have to be high to hold a job? Maybe if they spent less time smoking and more time studying, they wouldn't be cleaning carpets. But... I can't prove that either.

"Probable cause" is pretty open to interpretation. I would be willing to bet, that every person reading this post would have assumed those guys to be smoking weed without Adam having to say so, just by the mention of them going outside, and coming back in stinking of body spray. In that case, I would agree with "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime" (which is what smoking weed is).

As for alcohol being more dangerous than pot... probably. But a lot of smokers that I know are convinced that being high doesn't impair them in any way at all, which is bullspittle, although I don't think they are impaired as much as a drunk. However, I see a lot of other problems with pot being legalized. They already can't keep control of drunk drivers. Now you've got more high drivers? Or, because it's not legal, you've got people out at the bar, getting hammered AND high, and THEN driving home. You're just adding one problem on top of another.

My BIGGEST problem with it, is that if a drunk gets pulled over, you can prove on the spot that he's drunk. You can't do that with pot. A drug test would only show that you've smoked in the past few weeks. No problem right? Because it's legal. But what's that you say? Their eyes maybe are bloodshot, or they're having a hard time focusing? Pretty much happens to me when I'm sleep deprived. You can't PROVE they are high at the time.

That all said, if they could fix some of these problems (which they can't right now), I would probably be "more ok" with it. I know people who smoke. They do it at home. They don't bother anyone. They have jobs and are never high at work. No problem with that at all. But legalizing one more substance for availability to the people that can't be responsible? I don't see a rational point for it. Unfortunately we are all "punished" for the screw-ups of morons. :(

Not an attack on anyone's opinions or beliefs. I just like thought-out discussions.

I'd like to reply to some of your points. True, education pays for itself. At one time I was pretty poor and did most anything to make a buck. People need their carpet cleaned as much as being served at a burger joint.

Now, I earn a decent wage in the medical field. As to the assumption of probable cause due to the body spray: Smelling like a french whore isn't a crime and neither should be used to insert probable cause. There are nurses that go out to smoke cigs on our smoke-free campus and come back in reeking like a pole dancer. They did not break any federal, state, or local laws; just a hospital policy. I, on the other hand, do not care if I reek like an ashtray because I do not have patient contact.

In regards to playing "Chemical Roulette" with alcohol and drugs in a bar: It's already happening and has been happening for quite some time. With the right connections you can acquire most anything (pot, pills, coke, smack, etc) so I also don't think legalization would increase the availability of pot by astronomic proportions.

I feel that legalization will remove the criminal element and stigma from the herb; especially for those that use it as medicine. Also, I don't feel that more people will smoke because it is legal. I think by now we have reached an osmotic equilibrium with those that smoke. By now, everyone knows a smoker if they are aware that they puff at all.

The grass is medicine that helps people with various conditions that "legal"chemically derived pharmaceuticals can't relieve. Sure, pot is viewed as a recreational drug by many but for others it's relief - a natural product of Earth and not some chemical concoction produced in a lab.

Also, I know everyday smokers that lead responsible; successful, and productive lives. Generally good people. They'd never hurt a fly and give you the shirt off their back. If they ran into Adam's trap they would be considered criminals.

Forward thinking states exist and hopefully soon all will join in the legalization of medical marijuana. I also feel that as more states get strapped for cash they will discover that legalization leads to taxation - Just like they did with the booze.

[KnightRiderSS]

Wow...this thread has gone in quite a different direction........

If they were stupid enough to smoke pot outside of a police station and to not invoke the fifth when they were called out on it...I'd say they got off lucky with just citations....

It's sort of like getting pulled over "Do you know how fast you were going?"...If you were speeding you should never incriminate yourself...I'm courteous but I let the officer do the talking...

[AdamZ]

Originally Posted by KnightRiderSS

Wow...this thread has gone in quite a different direction........

If they were stupid enough to smoke pot outside of a police station and to not invoke the fifth when they were called out on it...I'd say they got off lucky with just citations....

Notice I took out the last part bc I like when the citizen does the talking. Usually digs them into a deeper hole

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Hammer St. James

I'd like to reply to some of your points. True, education pays for itself. At one time I was pretty poor and did most anything to make a buck. People need their carpet cleaned as much as being served at a burger joint.

Completely agree. But two types generally have those jobs. People that are young and transitioning, and people that have no decent education. I don't look down on it, just saying.

Now, I earn a decent wage in the medical field. As to the assumption of probable cause due to the body spray: Smelling like a french whore isn't a crime and neither should be used to insert probable cause. There are nurses that go out to smoke cigs on our smoke-free campus and come back in reeking like a pole dancer. They did not break any federal, state, or local laws; just a hospital policy. I, on the other hand, do not care if I reek like an ashtray because I do not have patient contact.

I think apples to oranges to be honest. Makes sense why your nurses try and hide it, but no anti-smoking policy for them outside a police station (that I've ever seen anyway). No reason to cover up cigarette smoke from a cop unless they were 16. I feel it's suspicious in that situation, just like I would be suspicious of your nurses breaking policy.

In regards to playing "Chemical Roulette" with alcohol and drugs in a bar: It's already happening and has been happening for quite some time. With the right connections you can acquire most anything (pot, pills, coke, smack, etc) so I also don't think legalization would increase the availability of pot by astronomic proportions.

I hear this point a lot. I've never seen a person smoke pot in a bar. Ever. And if I could buy weed at the gas station, that definitely increases availability. Not that it's not easy to get now, but people got booze during the prohibition too...

I feel that legalization will remove the criminal element and stigma from the herb; especially for those that use it as medicine. Also, I don't feel that more people will smoke because it is legal. I think by now we have reached an osmotic equilibrium with those that smoke. By now, everyone knows a smoker if they are aware that they puff at all.

Nothing against medical need at all. Provided the same stipulations of "stay at home" while you do it. I also know a lot of people that abuse that system. It's easy to find a doctor and say you suffer migrains and get the perscription, even if you don't. And I think there are quite a few people that would smoke pot if it were legal that don't now. I MIGHT be one of them. At very least, people will smoke more often, because they don't have to hide it.

The grass is medicine that helps people with various conditions that "legal"chemically derived pharmaceuticals can't relieve. Sure, pot is viewed as a recreational drug by many but for others it's relief - a natural product of Earth and not some chemical concoction produced in a lab.

Not really any difference of opinions here. Again, if not abused. Abusers to any other Rx are treated similarly.

Also, I know everyday smokers that lead responsible; successful, and productive lives. Generally good people. They'd never hurt a fly and give you the shirt off their back. If they ran into Adam's trap they would be considered criminals.

Like I said, I know some too. But, then again, they WOULD be criminals. In most states now, it is a misdemenor (unless you're carrying a lot) and not a felony. Just like a speeding ticket. We're not trying to get rid of speed limits, but that's a different topic entirely.

Forward thinking states exist and hopefully soon all will join in the legalization of medical marijuana. I also feel that as more states get strapped for cash they will discover that legalization leads to taxation - Just like they did with the booze.

They didn't make booze legal simply due to tax income. They did it because they couldn't stop the bootlegging. But had the government stuck to their guns, we would be in a similar position with booze as we are with weed. And the roads might be a little safer. Think about no bars for a bunch of people to drive to and get hammered at. Sure, there would be incidents, but I would bet not as many. People then wanted to get drunk more than high, and alcohol has been consumed in one form or another for more of the population than weed was smoked. But, if alcohol were illegal right now, I would bet they would be trying like hell to not make it legal. Even in a state like Cali, they can't get it legalized state-wide because of certain associated problems, and they've been trying for quite awhile. There aren't many states more liberal than here

I like that you have reasoning for your arguement, and you make some good points, even if I don't agree. I'm not completely against legalization as much as I sound like I am. I just don't feel there is the means to regulate and enforce it's laws in the same way we TRY with alcohol. If that changes, you would see me more likely to support it for everyone, not just for medicinal purposes.

Originally Posted by KnightRiderSS

Wow...this thread has gone in quite a different direction........

If they were stupid enough to smoke pot outside of a police station and to not invoke the fifth when they were called out on it...I'd say they got off lucky with just citations....

It's sort of like getting pulled over "Do you know how fast you were going?"...If you were speeding you should never incriminate yourself...I'm courteous but I let the officer do the talking...

Wonderful part of a discussion board. And I like sensible conversation.

[AdamZ]

Originally Posted by kalimus

Wonderful part of a discussion board. And I like sensible conversation.

It is quite interesting when it doesn't turn into flaming each other and actual thought is used before posting

[Rangore]

I've seen more pot smokers lead what would be classified as unsuccessful lives vs those that do have successful lives. I've told people that smoke...look to your left and right as you pass the joint and think about what those people do for a living and if their lives would be considered a success.

As it's been said...some are...but I would guess that most pot smokers aren't successful in life.

[PT145SS]

Originally Posted by kalimus

"Probable cause" is pretty open to interpretation. I would be willing to bet, that every person reading this post would have assumed those guys to be smoking weed without Adam having to say so, just by the mention of them going outside, and coming back in stinking of body spray. In that case, I would agree with "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime" (which is what smoking weed is).

"Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Belief" are two very different things and are different enough to be defined by SCOTUS in Terry vs. Ohio. Reasonable belief, would have only legally bought the OP a chance to make legal contact with the individual and get a "Terry Pat" out of it. The OP would then only have a limited chance to gain probable cause during a very limited and short investigation which is afforded in a Terry Stop. At no point does the OP have probable cause to search a vehicle as described in the post.

Unfortunately there are no laws that I am aware of preventing LEOs from lying about what they know during an interview. There are some laws about false promises in regards to letting someone go or reduced sentences and such. But a LEO can lie about pretty much anything else.

I would agree with others, opening ones mouth....even if completely innocent... is fool hardy. Your words can only be twisted and used against you.

LEO: Do you know why I pulled you over?

YOU: Because you have an uncontrollable urge to violate my 4th amendment rights!

[bossbunny]

Seriously?!?! Idiots! I worry about people.

[AdamZ]

Originally Posted by PT145SS

"Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Belief" are two very different things and are different enough to be defined by SCOTUS in Terry vs. Ohio. Reasonable belief, would have only legally bought the OP a chance to make legal contact with the individual and get a "Terry Pat" out of it. The OP would then only have a limited chance to gain probable cause during a very limited and short investigation which is afforded in a Terry Stop. At no point does the OP have probable cause to search a vehicle as described in the post.

Unfortunately there are no laws that I am aware of preventing LEOs from lying about what they know during an interview. There are some laws about false promises in regards to letting someone go or reduced sentences and such. But a LEO can lie about pretty much anything else.

I would agree with others, opening ones mouth....even if completely innocent... is fool hardy. Your words can only be twisted and used against you.

LEO: Do you know why I pulled you over?

YOU: Because you have an uncontrollable urge to violate my 4th amendment rights!

Pulling out the case law. I love it. For a terry frisk (or as you said terry pat) I can only frisk for weapons for my safety so if I felt a baggy in their pocket or anything I could only ask him what it is. He can say a bag of candy and that would be the end of it. Even if I was sure it was dope. Unless I saw him put it there then it's forbidden territory.

You are right with probable cause and reasonable belief. I need probably cause to search a vehicle. Even with reasonable belief I can not search anything. I can however frisk for weapons just for my safety with just reasonable belief.

[swizlstik]

Originally Posted by AdamZ

I wish one worth some money would come. Like a serial killer or something

Yeah, that's what society needs more of!

[Rangore]

Originally Posted by PT145SS

LEO: Do you know why I pulled you over?

YOU: Because you have an uncontrollable urge to violate my 4th amendment rights!

That's a great way to ruin your day. A simple "No, I don't" works better IMO. Even inserting a sir or ma'am is a good idea. Some officers are bad, but many/most are normal people trying to do a hard job. My respect goes out to them for trying to do what they do.

[AdamZ]

Originally Posted by swizlstik

Yeah, that's what society needs more of!

I'm not saying we need more. Just saying it'd be nice if they'd turn themselves in and make my job easier. One less person I'd have to worry about shooting me in the face when I pull them over