Shno's House of Z

[Number 3]

Lowdown you are bringing up the classic arguments that have paralized GM leaders. Short term gain vs. long term gain.

So the question is......................what is more important market share or profit? If you believe the answer is hang on to market share no matter what the cost in order to make more profit on the upside then you are correct.

The problem is GM market share in my 26 years only went up 2 times. It dropped the remaining 24 years in that span.

GM has held on to the belief that 51% was just a few good breaks away and the government would be looking to break them up again. I can remember (and I still have the lapel pin with 29) when GM made the "bold" move to hold on the 29% market share. Ooooops.

So you (and the classic arguments) may be right on the money. But the track record suggests otherwise.

All I am saying is a BMW or a Mercedes or even a Toyota are not know by any other name or nomenclature. GM may need to consider the same tact if for no other reason than profitability.

But also keep in mind Toyotas and Lexi don't sell well in Germany.

[2cnd chance]

Change is never easy and life is a compromise.

[LOWDOWN]

Gary Cowger (Mr. Million) and the 29% pin:

[LOWDOWN]

Unfortunately, GM has a continuously uninterrupted North American history of auto production since the 'Teens (WWII excepted). And that history includes gradually shedding unprofitable Divisions/Brands. Because, after all, General Motors was an amalgamation of independent companies. All contributed in one way or another to the Corporation's successes. Many Brands had a limited shelf life, or none at all.

BMW and Benz were virtually recreated from scratch, post-WWII. As were VW and Auto Union-NSU (Audi). Generally new factories, as required. "Out of the ashes"...maybe they should have been renamed Phoenix I and II and III and IV.

Toyota was a machinery company that branched out. NISSAN had its first vehicle rolled out in 1914 (Dat's the truth!). Honda didn't build its first car till the mid-'60s.

Point? GM has been saddled with numerous outdated factories throughout its entire history, practically. Factories that, in many cases at one time, built Brands we've long forgotten. Shackled with legacy costs the likes of which no other company on earth has/had ever dealt with. Had to endure, indirectly, stories over the dinner table for generations about vehicles and dealerships that were "sub-par" and made their owners furious. Whose offspring, not wanting any further contact with such circumstances, looked elsewhere for vehicular mobility.

Honda relied on their very successful motorcycle Brand name to launch their initially-motorcyle-derived cars. Toyota and Datsun-cum-NISSAN used the West Coast and its significant post-War Japanese population (and very low prices) to help launch their not-ready-for-prime-time products...and very quickly learned that American freeways and interstates required somewhat revised versions of their home products. And made very quick adjustments that paid very handsome dividends...Hilux and Lexus and Scion and Acura have followed.

BMW was saved, late-'50s, by its acquisition of manufacturing rights to the Isetta. It also manufactured under the name of Glas (an acquisition, also selling Goggomobil), M- (created), later acquired tha Rover Group (and booted it all, but retained a few names-only...including MINI). Acquired Rolls. Kept it. Acquired Husqvarna, to supplement its motorcyle Division. Benz, credited with creating the first practical car (thanks Karl), has had a generally consistent history that has included such Brands as Maybach (created - twice), Smart (acquired, the conceptual "rebirth" of the Isetta and Goggomobil), AMG (acquired), and -McLaren (although it remains a "well-connected" independent).

So, in fact, we see Brands added to fill certain niches and marketing directions where once only the "parent" name was used.

Think of all these auto operations as funnels. GM, with its multitudinous Brands, initially and since, has necked down over time, generally. As if the funnel was slowly emptying. The others, as above and including Ford, started from the small end of the spout (Brand-wise), and grew to fill the funnel, relatively...

History...repeating...

But each time you downsize, be it Brands or whatever, the downsizing by its very nature requires "shedding"...and Market Share is inevitably affected in the overall scope of things. And that shedding process eliminates talent...and ideas...in the chase for $ucce$$...or, merely, survival...

It still boggles my mind that a former 50+% Share "requires" something less than 20%, currently, to survive and thrive, domestically...

What's needed is a Board of diverse disciplines, supporting but objectively analyzing a CEO with a clear focused vision, who is capable of seeing that vision completed. With equal parts "true believer" and economic pragmatist and manufacturing process realist. And we need that person now...

[ShnOmac]

It's getting deep in here....

[OldScoolCamaro]

I must say this thread recently has been become quite an informative read....! My main concern was who will control our performance car market and will it stay relevant going forward into the future here at home. Or will someone else overseas within the corporation be relegated to make the final decision and have the final say on our beloved legacy car (Camaro). Changing the business model is needed to stay competitive. However, our high performance excesses or smaller percentage profit margin may not be taken as favorable or worthy by an off shore Corporate Executive who could deem it unnecessary. I watch overseas news and see the picture. GM is going towards GlobalMotors and that's good for GM to stay competitive and survive since it failed to adapt. I hope we don't get left out somewhere along the line and become an after thought about the Camaro that's all, since it was primarily a US company. Not really relevant,... but remember when the Gov tried to end the muscle car hobby in the 80's? Nothing is forever, nor guaranteed. But this car is the love of our lives. Other's not having, knowing, or growing up around a product over the course of their lives will not have the same connection or understanding. I guess I''m resistant to change, and a bit leary. I worry too much...

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Unfortunately, GM has a continuously uninterrupted North American history of auto production since the 'Teens (WWII excepted). And that history includes gradually shedding unprofitable Divisions/Brands. Because, after all, General Motors was an amalgamation of independent companies. All contributed in one way or another to the Corporation's successes. Many Brands had a limited shelf life, or none at all.

BMW and Benz were virtually recreated from scratch, post-WWII. As were VW and Auto Union-NSU (Audi). Generally new factories, as required. "Out of the ashes"...maybe they should have been renamed Phoenix I and II and III and IV.

Toyota was a machinery company that branched out. NISSAN had its first vehicle rolled out in 1914 (Dat's the truth!). Honda didn't build its first car till the mid-'60s.

Point? GM has been saddled with numerous outdated factories throughout its entire history, practically. Factories that, in many cases at one time, built Brands we've long forgotten. Shackled with legacy costs the likes of which no other company on earth has/had ever dealt with. Had to endure, indirectly, stories over the dinner table for generations about vehicles and dealerships that were "sub-par" and made their owners furious. Whose offspring, not wanting any further contact with such circumstances, looked elsewhere for vehicular mobility.

Honda relied on their very successful motorcycle Brand name to launch their initially-motorcyle-derived cars. Toyota and Datsun-cum-NISSAN used the West Coast and its significant post-War Japanese population (and very low prices) to help launch their not-ready-for-prime-time products...and very quickly learned that American freeways and interstates required somewhat revised versions of their home products. And made very quick adjustments that paid very handsome dividends...Hilux and Lexus and Scion and Acura have followed.

BMW was saved, late-'50s, by its acquisition of manufacturing rights to the Isetta. It also manufactured under the name of Glas (an acquisition, also selling Goggomobil), M- (created), later acquired tha Rover Group (and booted it all, but retained a few names-only...including MINI). Acquired Rolls. Kept it. Acquired Husqvarna, to supplement its motorcyle Division. Benz, credited with creating the first practical car (thanks Karl), has had a generally consistent history that has included such Brands as Maybach (created - twice), Smart (acquired, the conceptual "rebirth" of the Isetta and Goggomobil), AMG (acquired), and -McLaren (although it remains a "well-connected" independent).

So, in fact, we see Brands added to fill certain niches and marketing directions where once only the "parent" name was used.

Think of all these auto operations as funnels. GM, with its multitudinous Brands, initially and since, has necked down over time, generally. As if the funnel was slowly emptying. The others, as above and including Ford, started from the small end of the spout (Brand-wise), and grew to fill the funnel, relatively...

History...repeating...

But each time you downsize, be it Brands or whatever, the downsizing by its very nature requires "shedding"...and Market Share is inevitably affected in the overall scope of things. And that shedding process eliminates talent...and ideas...in the chase for $ucce$$...or, merely, survival...

It still boggles my mind that a former 50+% Share "requires" something less than 20%, currently, to survive and thrive, domestically...

What's needed is a Board of diverse disciplines, supporting but objectively analyzing a CEO with a clear focused vision, who is capable of seeing that vision completed. With equal parts "true believer" and economic pragmatist and manufacturing process realist. And we need that person now...

Yessssir

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

It's getting deep in here....


their called waders..........or hip boots. Wear them with pride.

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

I must say this thread recently has been become quite an informative read....! My main concern was who will control our performance car market and will it stay relevant going forward into the future here at home. Or will someone else overseas within the corporation be relegated to make the final decision and have the final say on our beloved legacy car (Camaro). Changing the business model is needed to stay competitive. However, our high performance excesses or smaller percentage profit margin may not be taken as favorable or worthy by an off shore Corporate Executive who could deem it unnecessary. I watch overseas news and see the picture. GM is going towards GlobalMotors and that's good for GM to stay competitive and survive since it failed to adapt. I hope we don't get left out somewhere along the line and become an after thought about the Camaro that's all, since it was primarily a US company. Not really relevant,... but remember when the Gov tried to end the muscle car hobby in the 80's? Nothing is forever, nor guaranteed. But this car is the love of our lives. Other's not having, knowing, or growing up around a product over the course of their lives will not have the same connection or undersatnding. I guess I''m resistant to change, and a bit leary. I worry too much...

The question is will we have room for American muscle in a future of CAFE and Global Green House Gas rules and regs? And I think the writing is on the wall. So maybe it's time to simply reinvent what that means and maybe GM is the company to do just that. But it won't be just global driving that it will be here at home as well.

[ShnOmac]

I haven't been duck hunting in a verrrrrry long time.... at least I can use these for something.

[2cnd chance]

Hopefully going forward they will have learned from the past. That is not letting the Camaro linger and linger and linger (remember the 70's and 80's) and then die. As they say if your not moving forward your falling behind. You gotta be fluid...Stay Frosty!

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Yessssir

An "interesting read"...time-stamped AFTER what I wrote, here, yesterday...

http://www.autoextremist.com/

After you read "Page 1", click on "Page 2", at the bottom, for (what Paul Harvey used to call) "the rest of the story".

[2cnd chance]

Man, and I thought things were hunky dory at GM, or that guy has a vendetta against Ackerson.

[Number 3]

He has had it in for every GM head over the years. But sometimes justified.

[2cnd chance]

Gotcha

[LOWDOWN]

He's a guy, like him or not, who calls a spade a shovel, as he sees it...