Recently Deceased: The Top 10 Reasons Why Pontiac Failed - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Renegade · 09-03-2012, 05:41 AM

Seems a lot people still mad about the Pontiac thing..did GM like Spike Lee says "Do the right thing" yes or no?

A few reasons why Pontiac failed.

1.The Aztek is arguably the number one reason for the failure of the Pontiac brand.

2.The Original Tran Sport concept was in keeping with the Pontiac tradition of an exciting people-mover. In reality, the production version of the original Trans Sport, along with its corporate cousins, the Chevrolet Lumina APV, and the Oldsmobile Silhouette, proved to be anything but exciting, or even practical for that matter.

3.The Discontinuation of the Firebird and Trans Am. The Firebird was Pontiac's signature car, what we now call a halo car, intended to cast a positive glow over the entire brand. When you thought of Pontiac in the 70's, the 80's and the 90's, this was inevitably the car that popped into your mind. This was the car that was used in all those "Smokey and the Bandit" movies, the campy "Knight Rider" television series, and was the car in the forefront of all those "We Build Excitement" television commercials throughout the 90's.

4.For years the Grand Am was Pontiac's best-selling car, but the last versions from 1999 to 2005 were truly--as our British cousins would say--rubbish. On paper they looked like a good value, but their ergonomics, structure, and reliability were substandard. There were issues with their braking systems, electrical system shorts, and that body cladding had a tendency to fall off. On top of all of these issues, Pontiac decided to remove standard features like ABS and traction control and make them optional. One good move was replacing the 2.4-liter twin-cam four-cylinder with the excellent 2.2-liter EcoTec that produced higher mileage ratings and was much smoother.

5.The GTO was a great car that was poorly launched. Basically, all GM did was to re-work the Holden Monaro for left-hand drive--which was no small task--then replace the grille and add badging.

6.Killing Model Names with Built-in Brand Equity.

7.Bonneville and Grand Prix "Updates" the Bonneville was once again re-designed for the 2000 model year, and you guessed it--the designers tacked on a lot of body cladding with different surface textures depending on the trim level.

8.Body Side Cladding. /to have the distinctive character the stylists were looking for while managing wherever they could to cut costs, plastic body cladding was used to achieve a distinctive look. This wasn't the first time that body cladding was used, but Pontiac was the division that used it the most, and on almost every model.

9.The Fiero and Solstice was never supposed to be a sports car; it was sold to GM management as a two-seat commuter car. The parts borrowed to make this mid-engined commuter car were decidedly bottom of the barrel, Chevette steering and suspension components and a wheezing 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine.

10.Badge Engineering The Excitement Division of General Motors was doing quite well throughout the eighties, even with an uninspired product line. Advertising of the period showcased the Firebird and Trans Am, the hot little Fiero, the Sunbird convertible, and Pontiac's best seller, the Grand Am. With the exception of the Fiero, each of them was styled just a bit differently than their corporate siblings, with brand-specific engines, wheels, trim, and interior furnishings.

fielderLS3 · 09-03-2012, 07:13 AM

GM did the right thing for GM. Badge engineering had a time in automotive history when it worked quite well, but times have changed. Granted, there still is some badge engineering going on today, but the type of badge engineering today is different than what was done in the 1980s and 1990s.

First, today's platforms are a bit more versatile, and there is a lot more differentiation possible from one car to another on the same or similar platforms....think Cadillac ATS and the next Camaro, or Cadillac XTS and Malibu. These cars certainly aren't carbon copies of each other despite their similar underpinnings. The same can't be said for Pontiac's 2008-2009 lineup.

Second, the market is much more global now. 10 to 20 years ago, as many as 6 (in the Trailblazer's case) almost identical versions of the same car were sold in the same market. Today, you are more likely to find 6 versions of the same car are tailored for 6 specific different markets, with only one version within any given market. This is a much more efficient way of getting higher sales numbers....single marketing in multiple markets instead of multiple marketing in single markets. And think about it...people in Europe are familiar with Chevrolet and Ford, but how many of them are familiar with Pontiac, or Saturn, or Mercury?

Ultimately, the classic form of badge engineering everyone thinks of when the term is used no longer works today. So the only way Pontiac could have survived without being a drag on GM would be if they had something unique to Pontiac that sold in high enough numbers to pay for itself despite the uniqueness. It did not, and partly because it did not have enough presence or brand recognition overseas to really sell outside the US, as Buick did with China, for example, so it had to go, and Buick got to stay. It isn't unique to Pontiac, either....Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Mercury, Plymouth (and if Ford doesn't get their act together with the brand fairly soon, maybe Lincoln) all had the same cause of death. I agree, sad to see all these classic nameplates go, but the business world is always evolving, and the business case for these brands just isn't there in today's world.

Number 3 · 09-03-2012, 10:13 AM

Most of what you posted is reasonable, but I sure wouldn't put the Aztek as the number 1 reason.

The number 1 reason it died was it didn't sell in any volumes. Due in part to many of the reasons you listed. However the COST to correct these things (unique non badge engineered cars for example) was prohibitive.

There were many plans to get Pontiac the products it needed, but they never were affordable for the volumes.

And if you look up the last years volumes for the Firebird, you'll get a clear sense of why it went bye bye.

In the end, Pontiac simply kept you from getting the best Chevrolets you could get.

But in the end, Pontiac had several uniquely styled cars that weren't badge engineered.

G8
G6
Solstice

But the badge engineered cars hurt the cause

Torrent
G5
G3

So as much as you may have loved Pontiac, and by starting this thread I'm guessng you do, Pontiac just ran it's course. When GM was selling 50% of the markets volume you could afford many brands. When you get below 20%, there just isn't enough capital to go around. In the end, you'll see better Chevys and Buicks as a result...............hopefully.

babytiger · 09-03-2012, 10:20 AM

Must be a slow news day. Pontiac made it's last vehicle in late 2009.
I'm not sure the Aztek was the number one reason for GM doing away with the Pontiac line though.

bcwooten85 · 09-03-2012, 10:33 AM

Had a 04 GTO...Car humbled me real quick...Still miss that thing...

Berean · 09-03-2012, 12:53 PM

Pontiac was dumped for one reason.

Buick sold better in China.

Dr. Evil · 09-03-2012, 10:46 PM

another reason was uninspired leadership. Pontiac and its cousins at Olds, Buick and GMC were always used as stepping stones up the corporate ladder for whoever was on the way up the ladder. It seems like every 4 years or so a new CEO at Pontiac would step in with his ideas and directions. With all these changes there was little continuity of leadership and direction thus the re-badging and uninspired styles.

I've looked back and as far the early 80s you could see it coming for Olds and Pontiac. GM spent millions on the quad 4 and it was a disaster. Why they didnt drop an L98 into an A body car is beyond me. Fule mileage would have been decent and power would have been on par with anything at the time. Look at how well the mid 90s Impala ss did. Imagine a mid 80s monte carlo SS or Pontiac Grand Prix with an L98 and then an LT1 and eventually an LS1. Now they are spending alot of $$ in RD to get the new rwd Chevy SS back to market when it never should have left.

ENV US · 09-03-2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berean

Pontiac was dumped for one reason.

Buick sold better in China.

+1

OUR72GTO · 09-03-2012, 11:45 PM

It failed because it did not ...................Build Excitement......... and hadn't for some time.

Avenging Orange · 09-04-2012, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcwooten85

Had a 04 GTO...Car humbled me real quick...Still miss that thing...

Had an '04 and '06.....Loved em both. Cars were tight, no squeeks, rattles or ticks.........best GM interior ever!

SPARTAN sui · 09-04-2012, 12:54 AM

I would take this Aztek.

Captain Awesome · 09-04-2012, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Second, the market is much more global now. 10 to 20 years ago, as many as 6 (in the Trailblazer's case) almost identical versions of the same car were sold in the same market.

The TrailBlazer was not like 10-20 years ago. It last was produced as a 2009 model. In spite of competing with 5 other versions of itself, it still managed to outsell the vehicle which allegedly replaced it. They would have been far better off from a sales standpoint to keep doing what they were doing.

ROBOSSRS · 09-04-2012, 09:12 AM

I loved my 2002 Aztek ,company vehicle, as did the other six guys in my group. When we sold our 1994 TransSport with 106,000 miles( we bought it new) on it, the lady that bought it said it was the best car she ever had. Yes I don't know what she owned before. The reason Pontiac was killed off is old news. It's because the Chinese love Buicks. 50 million Chinese can't be wrong.

Renegade · 09-04-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBOSSRS

I loved my 2002 Aztek ,company vehicle, as did the other six guys in my group. When we sold our 1994 TransSport with 106,000 miles( we bought it new) on it, the lady that bought it said it was the best car she ever had. Yes I don't know what she owned before. The reason Pontiac was killed off is old news. It's because the Chinese love Buicks. 50 million Chinese can't be wrong.

It's a shame..

09-03-2012, 05:41 AM	#1
Renegade Banned Drives: Camaro SS Edition Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: New York Posts: 6,840	Recently Deceased: The Top 10 Reasons Why Pontiac Failed Seems a lot people still mad about the Pontiac thing..did GM like Spike Lee says "Do the right thing" yes or no? A few reasons why Pontiac failed. 1.The Aztek is arguably the number one reason for the failure of the Pontiac brand. 2.The Original Tran Sport concept was in keeping with the Pontiac tradition of an exciting people-mover. In reality, the production version of the original Trans Sport, along with its corporate cousins, the Chevrolet Lumina APV, and the Oldsmobile Silhouette, proved to be anything but exciting, or even practical for that matter. 3.The Discontinuation of the Firebird and Trans Am. The Firebird was Pontiac's signature car, what we now call a halo car, intended to cast a positive glow over the entire brand. When you thought of Pontiac in the 70's, the 80's and the 90's, this was inevitably the car that popped into your mind. This was the car that was used in all those "Smokey and the Bandit" movies, the campy "Knight Rider" television series, and was the car in the forefront of all those "We Build Excitement" television commercials throughout the 90's. 4.For years the Grand Am was Pontiac's best-selling car, but the last versions from 1999 to 2005 were truly--as our British cousins would say--rubbish. On paper they looked like a good value, but their ergonomics, structure, and reliability were substandard. There were issues with their braking systems, electrical system shorts, and that body cladding had a tendency to fall off. On top of all of these issues, Pontiac decided to remove standard features like ABS and traction control and make them optional. One good move was replacing the 2.4-liter twin-cam four-cylinder with the excellent 2.2-liter EcoTec that produced higher mileage ratings and was much smoother. 5.The GTO was a great car that was poorly launched. Basically, all GM did was to re-work the Holden Monaro for left-hand drive--which was no small task--then replace the grille and add badging. 6.Killing Model Names with Built-in Brand Equity. 7.Bonneville and Grand Prix "Updates" the Bonneville was once again re-designed for the 2000 model year, and you guessed it--the designers tacked on a lot of body cladding with different surface textures depending on the trim level. 8.Body Side Cladding. /to have the distinctive character the stylists were looking for while managing wherever they could to cut costs, plastic body cladding was used to achieve a distinctive look. This wasn't the first time that body cladding was used, but Pontiac was the division that used it the most, and on almost every model. 9.The Fiero and Solstice was never supposed to be a sports car; it was sold to GM management as a two-seat commuter car. The parts borrowed to make this mid-engined commuter car were decidedly bottom of the barrel, Chevette steering and suspension components and a wheezing 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine. 10.Badge Engineering The Excitement Division of General Motors was doing quite well throughout the eighties, even with an uninspired product line. Advertising of the period showcased the Firebird and Trans Am, the hot little Fiero, the Sunbird convertible, and Pontiac's best seller, the Grand Am. With the exception of the Fiero, each of them was styled just a bit differently than their corporate siblings, with brand-specific engines, wheels, trim, and interior furnishings.

09-03-2012, 07:13 AM	#2
fielderLS3 Drives: 2016 Mazda6, 2011 Mustang 5.0 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Portage, Wisconsin Posts: 4,049	GM did the right thing for GM. Badge engineering had a time in automotive history when it worked quite well, but times have changed. Granted, there still is some badge engineering going on today, but the type of badge engineering today is different than what was done in the 1980s and 1990s. First, today's platforms are a bit more versatile, and there is a lot more differentiation possible from one car to another on the same or similar platforms....think Cadillac ATS and the next Camaro, or Cadillac XTS and Malibu. These cars certainly aren't carbon copies of each other despite their similar underpinnings. The same can't be said for Pontiac's 2008-2009 lineup. Second, the market is much more global now. 10 to 20 years ago, as many as 6 (in the Trailblazer's case) almost identical versions of the same car were sold in the same market. Today, you are more likely to find 6 versions of the same car are tailored for 6 specific different markets, with only one version within any given market. This is a much more efficient way of getting higher sales numbers....single marketing in multiple markets instead of multiple marketing in single markets. And think about it...people in Europe are familiar with Chevrolet and Ford, but how many of them are familiar with Pontiac, or Saturn, or Mercury? Ultimately, the classic form of badge engineering everyone thinks of when the term is used no longer works today. So the only way Pontiac could have survived without being a drag on GM would be if they had something unique to Pontiac that sold in high enough numbers to pay for itself despite the uniqueness. It did not, and partly because it did not have enough presence or brand recognition overseas to really sell outside the US, as Buick did with China, for example, so it had to go, and Buick got to stay. It isn't unique to Pontiac, either....Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Mercury, Plymouth (and if Ford doesn't get their act together with the brand fairly soon, maybe Lincoln) all had the same cause of death. I agree, sad to see all these classic nameplates go, but the business world is always evolving, and the business case for these brands just isn't there in today's world. __________________ 2022 1SS 1LE (Arrived 4/29/22) "The car is the closest thing we will ever create to something that is alive." . 2022 1SS 1LE (Coming Soon)

09-03-2012, 10:13 AM	#3
Number 3 Hail to the King baby! Drives: '19 XT4 2.0T & '22 VW Atlas 2.0T Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Illinois Posts: 12,306 View My Garage	Most of what you posted is reasonable, but I sure wouldn't put the Aztek as the number 1 reason. The number 1 reason it died was it didn't sell in any volumes. Due in part to many of the reasons you listed. However the COST to correct these things (unique non badge engineered cars for example) was prohibitive. There were many plans to get Pontiac the products it needed, but they never were affordable for the volumes. And if you look up the last years volumes for the Firebird, you'll get a clear sense of why it went bye bye. In the end, Pontiac simply kept you from getting the best Chevrolets you could get. But in the end, Pontiac had several uniquely styled cars that weren't badge engineered. G8 G6 Solstice But the badge engineered cars hurt the cause Torrent G5 G3 So as much as you may have loved Pontiac, and by starting this thread I'm guessng you do, Pontiac just ran it's course. When GM was selling 50% of the markets volume you could afford many brands. When you get below 20%, there just isn't enough capital to go around. In the end, you'll see better Chevys and Buicks as a result...............hopefully. __________________ "Speed, it seems to me, provides the one genuinely modern pleasure." - Aldous Huxley

09-03-2012, 10:33 AM	#5
bcwooten85 Drives: 2012 Chevy Camaro 2LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Muncie, IN Posts: 152	Had a 04 GTO...Car humbled me real quick...Still miss that thing... __________________ 2012 Camaro 2LS

09-03-2012, 10:46 PM	#7
Dr. Evil Drives: 2013 SS Join Date: May 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 350	another reason was uninspired leadership. Pontiac and its cousins at Olds, Buick and GMC were always used as stepping stones up the corporate ladder for whoever was on the way up the ladder. It seems like every 4 years or so a new CEO at Pontiac would step in with his ideas and directions. With all these changes there was little continuity of leadership and direction thus the re-badging and uninspired styles. I've looked back and as far the early 80s you could see it coming for Olds and Pontiac. GM spent millions on the quad 4 and it was a disaster. Why they didnt drop an L98 into an A body car is beyond me. Fule mileage would have been decent and power would have been on par with anything at the time. Look at how well the mid 90s Impala ss did. Imagine a mid 80s monte carlo SS or Pontiac Grand Prix with an L98 and then an LT1 and eventually an LS1. Now they are spending alot of $$ in RD to get the new rwd Chevy SS back to market when it never should have left. __________________ 2013 model 2SS LS3 1969 model wife. Factory stock, no mods. Redhead package. 2005 model son. Special ordered with the hell on wheels package.

09-03-2012, 10:20 AM	#4
babytiger it's hers... Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS Convertible Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: katy, tx Posts: 1,202	Must be a slow news day. Pontiac made it's last vehicle in late 2009. I'm not sure the Aztek was the number one reason for GM doing away with the Pontiac line though.

09-03-2012, 12:53 PM	#6
Berean Drives: Truck Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Home Posts: 2,439	Pontiac was dumped for one reason. Buick sold better in China.

09-03-2012, 11:45 PM	#9
OUR72GTO 2010 SIM Beige RS 6M Drives: SIM RS 6M 66 Corvair Silverado LTZ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Kamloops,British Columbia Posts: 4,673	It failed because it did not ...................Build Excitement......... and hadn't for some time. __________________ CAMARO.. 2010 The Heart Beat is back in CHEVROLET Now let's put it back in America

09-04-2012, 12:54 AM	#11
SPARTAN sui PC Technician Drives: 2016 Hyper Blue 2SS Join Date: May 2012 Location: North Dakota Posts: 2,161	I would take this Aztek. __________________

09-04-2012, 09:12 AM	#13
ROBOSSRS Drives: 2011 Camaro SS/RS Inferno Orange Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: York, PA Posts: 6,592	I loved my 2002 Aztek ,company vehicle, as did the other six guys in my group. When we sold our 1994 TransSport with 106,000 miles( we bought it new) on it, the lady that bought it said it was the best car she ever had. Yes I don't know what she owned before. The reason Pontiac was killed off is old news. It's because the Chinese love Buicks. 50 million Chinese can't be wrong.