Spark Plugs, Timing, and more

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

Originally Posted by kaler

Would you guys recommend tr6 or 7's in my application? (mods in my sig) BTW I am having a issue with the ecm pulling 6-8 deg. Of timing.

Need to figure out why it is pulling timing first.

Given what is listed I would start with a TR6.

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

As I said I don't disagree that certain applications need a different plug than came in the motor, but how is the world did we end up with TR6 Being the Almighty End ALL Spark Plug?

I try to keep everything from TR55's to TR9's in the NGK line as well as a number of other plugs on the shelf depending on the car.

The TR6 isn't always the answer but it sure helped on this one. Of course if we are talking 20 + psi of boost that would be WAY to hot of a plug.


Also, try the iX plugs...seem to work better than the normal copper plugs in certain applications.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

LOL, Yeah I have been called out several times on this by Some Not So Nice People (NOT LG) who would rather throw stones than Discuss the Technical side of the Subject.

I certainly Love a good technical discussion but every time this comes up the whole discussion turns to nothing more than opinions and internet folk lore, and I am Smarter than you Threads.

I want to know The Hows and Whys from an Engineering Stand point.

Call me a Techno Geek

As I said I don't disagree that certain applications need a different plug than came in the motor, but how is the world did we end up with TR6 Being the Almighty End ALL Spark Plug?

Every single time we try them, or a car comes in with them, I take them out because they Misfire at Light Cruise and it drives me Nuts.

Even the Ford Guys, and Chrysler guys are using them because they Read it on the internet, if it is on the internet it must be true. LOL.

I been doing this for more years than I care to talk about I tested TR6 back in 2000 and every consecutive year since, They Sucked then and they Suck now in an LS engine, Ford Engine and Chrysler engine.

Maybe I can sell all the ones I take out LOL.

Ted.

the tr6 itself is pretty old school, ls1 style....

I think it became popular because they are so cheap and effective as a replacement to the 20 dollar iridiums, or whatever price they are now.

it became used improperly because a lot of people don't really know much about cars and don't know who to trust or don't have a quality local shop like jre or lg around so they just go with what they read, then add in the easy spread of info on the Internet and people knowing just enough to get in trouble and you have widespread misinformation. happens all the time.

a lot of guys have hurt motors with tr6 because they were wrong for the application. you deal with a lot of high hp engines, boost, nitrous, etc based only on threads, none of which a tr6 is right for.

tr6 isn't a bad plug, it just needs to be used correctly.

[dekan513]

i pulled my factory plugs and im at 460-470 rwhp range on local dyno and they read pretty good to me almost like the ones posted on the 2nd page. im gonna run the tr7 for while with a small shot and see how they do and ill get my local tuner to tell me what he thinks aswell , and anthony u should know bluecat or i think u do anyway he dont give a shit one way or another he will tell u the truth they guy is top notch in my book

but the factory plugs do good i think , until u boost or spray.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by dekan513

i pulled my factory plugs and im at 460-470 rwhp range on local dyno and they read pretty good to me almost like the ones posted on the 2nd page. im gonna run the tr7 for while with a small shot and see how they do and ill get my local tuner to tell me what he thinks aswell , and anthony u should know bluecat or i think u do anyway he dont give a shit one way or another he will tell u the truth they guy is top notch in my book

but the factory plugs do good i think , until u boost or spray.

he will tell you the truth in his opinion just like everyone else.

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

The picture of the plug in the opening thread shows a lot of detonation and heat, and a Lean AFR.

Please explain how a bone stock car with a factory tune can do this, on premium fuel if all is working as it should, something is not right about this.

We just don't see this in these cars Unless something else is wrong on a bone stock car with a bone stock tune.

Bad fuel, Oil ingestion, bad injectors, something is causing this and it is not the Plugs that the factory recommends.

But just for argument sake You could in fact achieve the same results on the same car with the LS9 Plugs.

I know this thread is aimed at me and I welcome the debate but lets get some Real Hard Facts and not just opinions to back up the claims.

It wasn't aimed at you. This is my personal car, and only car. It goes back and forth to work with me every day. I heard knock on the car and started an investigation as to why.

1. Uses pump fuel (granted there could be some variation with that, it isn't lab fuel)
2. It has normal oil changes using synth. oil
3. It isn't raced
4. It uses no oil, at least nothing measurable.


LS7 plugs and LS9 plugs are the same part...look it up.

I love GM parts too when I can use them. But if all of their parts are so great why did you change the manifolds and camshaft?

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Anthony @ LG Motorsports

It wasn't aimed at you. This is my personal car, and only car. It goes back and forth to work with me every day. I heard knock on the car and started an investigation as to why.

1. Uses pump fuel (granted there could be some variation with that, it isn't lab fuel)
2. It has normal oil changes using synth. oil
3. It isn't raced
4. It uses no oil, at least nothing measurable.


LS7 plugs and LS9 plugs are the same part...look it up.

I love GM parts too when I can use them. But if all of their parts are so great why did you change the manifolds and camshaft?

I fully appreciate the Effort that went in to this Thread and Respect LG Whole Heartily.

Some how we are still missing answers to the questions I posted.

Given the info you have provided, Your changing something to cover up something Else that is obviously wrong given the plug reading.

I have been tuning engines by reading plugs since I was 8 years old, (that would be 40 years ago) when my Grandfather taught me, this does not happen without a Good Reason.

If it was Bad Gas then your testing is Flawed because that gas is gone now after mixing race fuel then switching back to fresh pump fuel.

When someone shows me a Picture the wheels start turning Immediately as to WHY and HOW.

I welcome anything you want to share.

Ted.

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

I fully appreciate the Effort that went in to this Thread and Respect LG Whole Heartily.

Some how we are still missing answers to the questions I posted.

Given the info you have provided, Your changing something to cover up something Else that is obviously wrong given the plug reading.

I have been tuning engines by reading plugs since I was 8 years old, (that would be 40 years ago) when my Grandfather taught me, this does not happen without a Good Reason.

If it was Bad Gas then your testing is Flawed because that gas is gone now after mixing race fuel then switching back to fresh pump fuel.

When someone shows me a Picture the wheels start turning Immediately as to WHY and HOW.

I welcome anything you want to share.

Ted.

Well like I said, it is my personal car and the car started to have audible knock. Nothing in the tune has been changed with fueling or timing. I changed some of the fan settings, and torque management. I even put a 100% stock file back in the car and it still did it.

Interesting side note, I did a log on a 2008 Corvette doing something similar, but only at higher RPM's, not across the board like you saw on my car.

Could very well be the new pump fuels as well.

Nothing measurable- Oil ingestion
Tried a number of stations over the past few months - Bad Fuel
No, within stock range - Higher that designed water temps
Again, within stock for Texas - Higher than designed air intake temps
Not that I could see with a bore-a-scope - Carbon build up in the combustion chamber creating higher compression and hot spots
Stock Tune, sensors seem ok - Too much timing not likely on stock engine with stock tune, but a faulty Knock sensor Maybe
No intake leaks, stock fuel map, stock fuel pressure, top end and injector cleaner both tried before plug change - Lean air fuel due to dirty fuel injectors vacuum leaks low fuel pressure etc.
Clogged Exhaust, failed cat.

Exhaust baffles were open on the exhaust (stock Z06). The car put down 463 rwhp stock, so I don't think the car is hurting for power (most make 445-465 on average)

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Anthony @ LG Motorsports

Well like I said, it is my personal car and the car started to have audible knock. Nothing in the tune has been changed with fueling or timing. I changed some of the fan settings, and torque management. I even put a 100% stock file back in the car and it still did it.

Interesting side note, I did a log on a 2008 Corvette doing something similar, but only at higher RPM's, not across the board like you saw on my car.

Could very well be the new pump fuels as well.

Nothing measurable- Oil ingestion
Tried a number of stations over the past few months - Bad Fuel
No, within stock range - Higher that designed water temps
Again, within stock for Texas - Higher than designed air intake temps
Not that I could see with a bore-a-scope - Carbon build up in the combustion chamber creating higher compression and hot spots
Stock Tune, sensors seem ok - Too much timing not likely on stock engine with stock tune, but a faulty Knock sensor Maybe
No intake leaks, stock fuel map, stock fuel pressure, top end and injector cleaner both tried before plug change - Lean air fuel due to dirty fuel injectors vacuum leaks low fuel pressure etc.
Clogged Exhaust, failed cat.

Exhaust baffles were open on the exhaust (stock Z06). The car put down 463 rwhp stock, so I don't think the car is hurting for power (most make 445-465 on average)

I would keep looking something is not right to have plug reading like that.

Ted.

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

I would keep looking something is not right to have plug reading like that.

Ted.

I have been pulling data on this car for well over a year. It certainly isn't effecting total power, once the knock as been removed.

I have been gathering info from other cars for some time...it isn't an isolated case.


Not saying this plug is the answer for ever single car...just saying that the car will tell you what it wants. Race fuel would be the answer as well because it killed knock on the car, but honestly it isn't worth spending $7/gallon for it.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by Anthony @ LG Motorsports

I have been pulling data on this car for well over a year. It certainly isn't effecting total power, once the knock as been removed.

I have been gathering info from other cars for some time...it isn't an isolated case.


Not saying this plug is the answer for ever single car...just saying that the car will tell you what it wants. Race fuel would be the answer as well because it killed knock on the car, but honestly it isn't worth spending $7/gallon for it.

One word, E85.

I just tuned an SS on it that was otherwise stock. It's not quite the difference between pump and C12, but it's pretty damn good stuff, especially for 3.29 a gallon. Plus everything smells like popcorn.

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

One word, E85.

I just tuned an SS on it that was otherwise stock. It's not quite the difference between pump and C12, but it's pretty damn good stuff, especially for 3.29 a gallon. Plus everything smells like popcorn.

If I'm going to do E85, I'm going to run it 13.5:1

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by Anthony @ LG Motorsports

If I'm going to do E85, I'm going to run it 13.5:1

fair enough.

[ZO6 Bryan]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

LOL, Yeah I have been called out several times on this by Some Not So Nice People (NOT LG) who would rather throw stones than Discuss the Technical side of the Subject.

I certainly Love a good technical discussion but every time this comes up the whole discussion turns to nothing more than opinions and internet folk lore, and I am Smarter than you Threads.

I want to know The Hows and Whys from an Engineering Stand point.

Call me a Techno Geek

As I said I don't disagree that certain applications need a different plug than came in the motor, but how is the world did we end up with TR6 Being the Almighty End ALL Spark Plug?

Every single time we try them, or a car comes in with them, I take them out because they Misfire at Light Cruise and it drives me Nuts.

Even the Ford Guys, and Chrysler guys are using them because they Read it on the internet, if it is on the internet it must be true. LOL.

I been doing this for more years than I care to talk about I tested TR6 back in 2000 and every consecutive year since, They Sucked then and they Suck now in an LS engine, Ford Engine and Chrysler engine.

Maybe I can sell all the ones I take out LOL.

Ted.

So what do you replace the NGK's with?