Four Cylinder Camaro

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The short answer is yes.

There are 30 some odd states that require a vehicle emissions test. In most of those states emissions testing is required only in the most populated areas.

I can't afford to ship my car out of state every time I want to drive it, so be any reasonable measure I am denied the ability to drive any car I want.

Keep stretching.

Meanwhile, it gets hot in the summer and I want to save fuel by not running the A/C a lot, so I got a 75% tint all around. Every time I take my car out I keep getting chased by these nice fellow with guns who sell me pieces of paper for large sums of money. What kind of freedom is that? I can't refuse their paper slips for some reason. They tell me if I refuse to pay for their paper slips I will go to jail. Another freedom to choose I lost.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by SlingShot

Damn dude, guess you got me ... The next thing you know, they will be takin away our 8-tracks and givin the woman folk the right to vote. We can't have any of that can we ? Them bastards !!!

My affiliations are the ones who pushed through womens voting rights. You might want to get some facts before spouting myths.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I have no sympathy for whiners and complainers. If you don't like the way the Federal, State or Local governments operate do something to change it. Woe is me. I have no choice. Can I whine for a while on C5...I am a victim of... Elections have consequences. Governmental decisions have consequences. Personal choices have consequences.

If you don't like the way it is get it changed.

If you are not willing to man up, make an effort and pay the price to make a difference shut the #$%& up.

In some places the system is too corrupt to change. Jerrymandered districts and votes paid for with taxes collected from people who oppse the corrupt system make change impossible.

Some of us are trying to prevent that from happening everywhere. One way to do that is to explain the consequences of votes to people who it may affect down the road. For example, telling people born after 1990 what CAFE did to cars in the 70's and 80's may be just the wake-up call needed to get them to care about what is happening and help change it so we don't repeat the horrors of the 190HP Big Block Trans Am, etc.

How would you like to see the Camaro lose 15% of its horsepower every year for 5 to 10 years straight??? That's essentially what CAFE did back then.

We can do something. This is not "whining", it is explaining.

People born after the 80's have only lived through ever increasing power numbers and seem to think nothing can happen to impede the ever climbing power curve. The impression is that like computers and phones ever year technology will bring more and more power. CAFE in a short time can take us back to car equivalent of the Pentium 4 era, if we are not careful. It happend before, and can easily happen again, if we try and FORCE the technology before it is ready. That is why we oppose the sudden JUMP in CAFE.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

I can't afford to ship my car out of state every time I want to drive it, so be any reasonable measure I am denied the ability to drive any car I want.

Keep stretching.

Meanwhile, it gets hot in the summer and I want to save fuel by not running the A/C a lot, so I got a 75% tint all around. Every time I take my car out I keep getting chased by these nice fellow with guns who sell me pieces of paper for large sums of money. What kind of freedom is that? I can't refuse their paper slips for some reason. They tell me if I refuse to pay for their paper slips I will go to jail. Another freedom to choose I lost.

Elections have consequences. Government decisions have consequences. Your decisions have consequences.

You CHOOSE to live in New York. That means you CHOOSE to live with the laws and regulations applicable in New York. If you don't like them you have four CHOICES.

1. Do the work that is necessary to change them.
2. Break them as an act of civil disobedience.
3. Live with them and find a way to smile.
4. Move.

You have CHOICES that are all more productive than trying to make a political statement in a Camaro car forum.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by SlingShot

Guess we shouldn't have taken away the right to have lead in our paint, or to use asbestos in our buildings. Judgement calls are made in life, based on the many and not on the few.

True story: they took away our petroleum based car paints and replaced them with water based paints. A lot of CAMARO owners on a website called Camaro5.com are complaining because the paint quality is very poor and has a lot of "orange peel", and the paint chips off really easily. The problems noticed can be traced to the horrible water based paint being much harder to work with.

Instead of making the petroleum PAINT illegal, they could have just as easily required that the fumes be contained in the painting process. But no.... we all suffer because some jerk made an arbitrary decision to appease environmentalists.

Speaking of which, do you know how many children in other countries have died of malaria because someone decided that DDT should be outlawed based on some dubious enviro research?

As far as lead and asbestos are concerned, the panic over those caused more harm then good. If people left them alone they would not hurt anyone. It turns out that people get more exposure from the dust generated by being forced to remove these materials than they would if they lived with them and left them in place. They could have just suggested that people stop using it and explaining why the materials are harmful and people would avoid buying them and avoid using them naturally, without a "ban" and all the "removal" issues.

You need to do some research before typing in this topic.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Minus_Z28

At the risk of taking this thread further off the rails,


...you know that's only a law in the European Union, right? There are tax benefits for manufacturers in the United States who use avoid using leaded solder, but the stuff isn't illegal as far as I've read.

Also, the xbox-specific problems, if caused by the soldering, seem to be caused by using the wrong type of lead-free solder, not lead-free solder itself. This is why the problems seem to be limited to Microsoft. Your complaint is analogous to claiming that "juice" ruined your chicken picatta, even though it explicitly calls for lemon while you used apple instead.

Since lead is against the law in the EU, none of the component makers wanted to produce chips and parts for 2 markets, so they make only lead free parts, and it is not recommended to mix lead solder and lead free components in many cases, you cannot make electronic products anywhere in the world thanks to a "law" in the Eurozone, which many people dispute the benefits of.

Regarding the XBOX360 failure rates... ALL lead free solder is more brittle and cracks more easily at temperature. Some are better than others, but not by a lot. If they had used lead based solder the problems could have been avoided completely.

Your analogy with chicken picatta would be more accurate in saying that the recipe called for lemon juice which was outlawed, so they used prune juice and someone said that the correct substitute is grape juice. Both are bad replacements.

If you think no other companies had problems except microsoft, you are sadly wrong. "Tin Whiskers" have been a plague for many manufacturers. Nobody knows the long term problems caused by the lead free solder yet either. The reason microsoft was hardest hit was that their production runs were so large that the problem did not manifest itself until millions of units were in the field.

The takeaway is that there would have been no problem if there was no ban on lead in the EU.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Turbos add cost and complexity. Price goes up.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Elections have consequences. Government decisions have consequences. Your decisions have consequences.

You CHOOSE to live in New York. That means you CHOOSE to live with the laws and regulations applicable in New York. If you don't like them you have four CHOICES.

1. Do the work that is necessary to change them.
2. Break them as an act of civil disobedience.
3. Live with them and find a way to smile.
4. Move.

You have CHOICES that are all more productive than trying to make a political statement in a Camaro car forum.

So, which states are not enforcing CAFE? I wanna move there!



You failed to notice that as the federal government grows itself bigger and bigger, the ability for states to make choices becomes swallowed up by the feds and the beaurocrats.

You cannot move to another state if the regs are forced on all states and written by people who you cannot vote out of office.

This is the issue I am trying to warn you about.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

People born after the 80's have only lived through ever increasing power numbers and seem to think nothing can happen to impede the ever climbing power curve. The impression is that like computers and phones ever year technology will bring more and more power. CAFE in a short time can take us back to car equivalent of the Pentium 4 era, if we are not careful. It happend before, and can easily happen again, if we try and FORCE the technology before it is ready. That is why we oppose the sudden JUMP in CAFE.

Your historical analogy doesn't fit with the available information. HP numbers peaked in 69 and went on a continuous downward slide for years. Unlike the last time regulation crippled performance we already know that the next generation of engines are more powerful than the last.

1969 Corvette Horsepower
Replacement of the 327-cubic-inch small-block V8s with new 350-cubic-inch versions. As with the 327s, the 350s were rated at 300 horsepower in base form and 350 horsepower in the optional "L46." The 427s also returned carrying the same power ratings as '68's. ZL-1 was a limited production option and only two of the 585-horsepower ZL-1s were produced.

1970
Base 350 300 HP. The "LT-1" 350 370-horsepower. Two 454-cubic-inch big-block V8s — a 390-horsepower "LS5" wearing a four-barrel carburetor and a tri-power equipped "LS7" making a claimed 460 horsepower although non where sold.

1971 Corvette Horsepower
Base 350 Dropped to 270 horsepower because of emissions. LT-1 350 dropped to 330 horsepower. The detuned LS5 454 now made a mere 365 horsepower. Gone was the LS7 454 and in its place was an "LS6" 454 four-barrel V8 rated at 425 horsepower.

1972
switch from SAE gross to SAE net power ratings. So the base 350 now produced a 200-horsepower rating, the LT1 made just 255 horsepower, and the sole big-block, an LS5 454, could only do 270 horsepower.

1973 Corvette Horsepower
Base 350 now rated at 190 horsepower and a new optional "L-82" 350 made 250 horsepower. The sole 454 was an "LS4" rated at 275 horsepower.

1974
Same HP as 1973 give or take a few ponies. Last year for the big-block V8.

1975
Base 350 V8 making a hideous 165 horsepower or the L82 making 205 horsepower exhaling through a catalytic converter.

This isn't the 60s or the 70s.

2013 Vette LS3 420 HP

2014 Vette 5.5 DI V8 440 HP

I have zero use for anyone in my business to complain without having a solution. If there is something that needs to be fixed you better think about it and find a solution before you open your mouth to complain. You may not find the best solution for the problem you identified, but you become a better employee by thinking. Finding fault is easy. Fixing things is hard work. If you aren't part of the solution you are a bigger problem than the problem at hand.

People get from government what they deserve based on their personal commitment to care for the gift of liberty that is the foundation of America. Government corruption exists because the electorate accepts it. We the people are the government, but only when we care enough to demand better will our government represent the best in us.

No whining about lack of choice is ever acceptable. Complaining is inappropriate. This is where we are. This is where we want to be. What price are we willing to pay individually to get from here to there is the only question worth asking. It requires personal CHOICE and most certainly will come with a price. We all have a choice.

[Lou_Dorchen]

There has been a solution offered, you just dont like it. Here it is again:

Let the consumers decide what cars they want to drive.

Then the automakers will make those cars the consumers, not the Government, wants produced. Everyone will be happy. Well almost everyone. Those people who like to tell others how to live their lives wont be happy.

[rykeith]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

There has been a solution offered, you just dont like it. Here it is again:

Let the consumers decide what cars they want to drive.

Then the automakers will make those cars the consumers, not the Government, wants produced. Everyone will be happy. Well almost everyone. Those people who like to tell others how to live their lives wont be happy.

QFT... and how in the world has this thread survived this long.

[bluebox]

I put this thread away thinking it would die a withering death by lethal insanity.

Pete, you've tried much, much harder than you should, and though I commend you for it, I only have one thing to say:

"Some people you just can't get through to."

A reality check is needed, or else those people should drive somewhere in the V8 Camaro they already posess with their tin hat, incandescent bulbs, lead solder, big gulp, and go hole up in a mountainside. Better yet, go somewhere people have NO choice, like N. Korea, and find out how petty their whining and b!#%$ing really sounds. Far away from the civilization that actually cares about our children's future more than their liberty to choose a friggin' V8 just because it's a friggin' V8...

Is there such a thing as getting back on topic here?

The first gen Camaros had a 140hp gross (100hp net?) L6, which did 0-60 in the same time the mid-level 350 SS did the quarter mile (something like 14 sec.). Didn't stop anyone from buying Camaros because of the humiliation of having a weak sister motor in some of them, did it? V8 models outsold the L6 4 to 1. After all these years, I still don't hear anyone complaining about a weak model in the original lineup destroying the cachet of the Camaro. A used '68 Powerglide six was the first Camaro I could afford a little while after getting my license. Got a lot of compliments on it through the '80's, too - got even more with my second '68, a V8...

A turbo 4 that performs well and offers something different/better like AWD should be welcomed as long as it allows hi po models to exist, be they smaller displacement V8's than today's, TT V6, or whatever provides the most grins per mile. I love my LS3 M6 Camaro because it's a blast, sounds great, has room in the back for the kids, and is 5-star crash rated for their protection and mine - I guess those regulators/agencies who want to take away our freedom to die easily in cars actually came in useful after all, otherwise we'd still be driving first-gen style death traps.

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

Do what?!?! It was offered by Ford. California said no and thus the TrackKeys were witheld from the Boss owners.

Speaking of trying again, I do like how you keep changing your reasoning as your excuses are shown to not hold water.



Red herring.

And the Constitution was specifically written to protect the greatest minority of all, the individual. We are not Governed by a simple 'majority rules' system. Our Constitution put limits on Government and guarantees individual rights.

So answer my question I asked earlier. Since the Constitution does not specifically guarantee us the right to wear MLB baseball caps, can the Government ban those?

Of course not, 1st Amendment Freedom of Speech ...

Tell me, with all these things you are complaining about, has your quality of life changed ? I know mine hasn't ... I'm retired, have a roof over my head, food in the fridge, a couple really nice cars, a good family and have zero problems doing the things I want to do. Life is great and it is what I make of it.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

There has been a solution offered, you just dont like it. Here it is again:

Let the consumers decide what cars they want to drive.

Then the automakers will make those cars the consumers, not the Government, wants produced. Everyone will be happy. Well almost everyone. Those people who like to tell others how to live their lives wont be happy.

Your solution to change laws and regulation is let the people decide what they want to buy?

That is not a solution. It is a wish or a hope or a goal. Tell me how you plan to shrink the size and scope of the Federal government?

There is a difference between wanting something and making the want a reality.