What are the advantages of turning off T/C?

[wadeh]

I agree with you completely that the driver of a high performance car should have the ability to control it without electronic aids.

I've not had the experience of the aids engaging "unreasonably early" on a modern performance car. This wasn't true 10 years ago. I had both a Lexus GS400 and a C5 Corvette, both of which had a tendency to set off the aids early and abruptly. My C6 Corvette and my Camaro are huge improvements in this area. Both of them allow a fair amount of wheelspin or a fair amount for rear end slide before kicking in. And the the case of the Corvette in competition mode, it is often subtle enough that you might not notice except for the message on the dash.

In one case, in the Camaro, I had a pickup run a stop sign from my right just as I was entering the intersection at 30 mph. I like to think that I could have managed the evasive maneuver with raw skill, but Stabilitrak definitely helped. It can do things that no driver can, such as differential braking to control a spin, which definitely applied here.

So while I am in agreement with you that electronic aids are no substitute for driver skills, I would never make a habit of driving around with them off. In my opinion, that would be giving up that extra margin of safety with no benefit in return.

[Norm Peterson]

Have you ever autocrossed?

I'm not getting at shutting the aids of for that activity, just drawing a comparison between the violent maneuvering there against most anything you'd see on the street.

I'll give you that the suddenness of street incidents can be greater, and that the urgency behind getting it right is a lot higher. But I really doubt that the intensity of the maneuvers themselves are any higher on the street than they are running through the cones. You can only crank the steering wheel over or work the pedals so fast.

The most extreme street maneuvering I can recall is a couple of incidents where I suddenly found myself having to dodge scattered pieces of truck tire tread at 65-ish mph. Both occurred while driving the car you see in my avatar, which does not have stability control (and the TC that it does have gets shut off). Basically they were three-cone slaloms driven at maintenance throttle, and not particularly more exciting for me to experience than it is for me to type about them. Harnesses or chest straps would have been appreciated though, particularly by the passenger(s).

Comparatively, even the incident last weekend where avoiding a driver who was about to cruise through a Yield (and then into/through me if I didn't do anything) was strictly a slow-motion practice exercise, at probably 25 - 30 mph. That was while driving my wife's Subaru LGT, which is the car that didn't think I should be adding throttle while turning in toward the apex of an entrance ramp. Having power cut and with a brake dragging isn't the way I want to merge into 60 mph traffic.


I suspect that in the majority of instances ST is covering for driver error, and suddenly lifting off the throttle while turning falls into this category. And for most people, sharply slowing or braking is the main response when the situation starts heading off someplace in a handbasket. Sure, you suddenly wish you were going slower, but the process of doing so tends to de-stabilize the car for at least a couple of vehicle dynamics reasons. People tend to get a little panicky and are even more likely to make errors once the car feels or actually becomes a little "loose".


Norm

[Synner]

I love how people think there was never a performance vehicle before the advent of nannies and driving without them means you will wreck. The only thing nannies do is allow poor drivers to operate vehicles that they lack the skills to operate safety. When people say "never drive with them off" all I hear is "I should be driving a civic."

A good driver knows how to handle oversteer, understeer, locked brakes, limited traction and other situations where the nannies step in. They also learn and understand the limits of their vehicle. The people who never better themselves as drivers or learn their vehicles need nannies. Safety margins are located within the driver brain, hands, and feet. No nanny can fix that.

[Synner]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I contend that the driver of a performance car should be capable of safely driving it without "assistance". Safely within the limits of the car or its operator, whichever is lower.

I can't think of any good reason why the principal driver of a 400+ HP poinycar should not be able to keep wheelspin under control, and have the skill to "catch" it before everything does go to hell in a handbasket if it's allowed to go beyond "just a little". Same with cornering, particularly in the wet. If you're going to drive a car with this much performance potential, you owe it to yourself to learn how to drive it smoothly enough that you can feel the rear about to step out long enough before it actually does, to actually do the proper small correction.

This is where I start the slow clap....

[GaBoy25]

Okay this is the VIDEO where I ALMOST wreck. Steering into the ditch to regain traction and yanking it back hard left.(goes against your logic) This is how you wreck in a split second if you can't recover. There was a lake that you can't see down the steep ditch...problem was I was on a bridge....THE CHANGE OF PAVEMENT suface was to blame....the rubber showed it.

I learned my lesson...last burnout I've done. It could have been very bad.

CLICK PIC TO VIEW VIDEO....Watch my tail lights at the very end of the run.(right at 6 or 7 sec mark)

[quualudes]

Originally Posted by Synner

This is where I start the slow clap....

Adding my clap...

[Mchlgrrsn]

Originally Posted by Synner

I love how people think there was never a performance vehicle before the advent of nannies and driving without them means you will wreck. The only thing nannies do is allow poor drivers to operate vehicles that they lack the skills to operate safety. When people say "never drive with them off" all I hear is "I should be driving a civic."

A good driver knows how to handle oversteer, understeer, locked brakes, limited traction and other situations where the nannies step in. They also learn and understand the limits of their vehicle. The people who never better themselves as drivers or learn their vehicles need nannies. Safety margins are located within the driver brain, hands, and feet. No nanny can fix that.

been working on my driving skillz for over 25 years. know the road your on is one of the first things you should learn. Never launch it on an unknow road.

[Synner]

Originally Posted by GaBoy25

Okay this is the VIDEO where I ALMOST wreck. Steering into the ditch to regain traction and yanking it back hard left.(goes against your logic) This is how you wreck in a split second if you can't recover. There was a lake that you can't see down the steep ditch...problem was I was on a bridge....THE CHANGE OF PAVEMENT suface was to blame....the rubber showed it.

I learned my lesson...last burnout I've done. It could have been very bad.

CLICK PIC TO VIEW VIDEO....Watch my tail lights at the very end of the run.(right at 6 or 7 sec mark)

Goes against what logic? Street racing in the dark next to a ditch and a bridge...nanny don't fix that. Maybe if you had an actual nanny sitting next to you and slap you upside the head.

[GaBoy25]

Originally Posted by Synner

Goes against what logic? Street racing in the dark next to a ditch and a bridge...nanny don't fix that. Maybe if you had an actual nanny sitting next to you and slap you upside the head.

Street racing? I own 246 acres on both sides of this road. It's called MOORE road....my LAST name.

Don't go there....

[GaBoy25]

Let me know when you see the car I'm racing....I didn't

[Synner]

My bad, it's definitely the bridges fault.

[GaBoy25]

Originally Posted by Synner

My bad, it's definitely the bridges fault.

No it's mine. That's the point.

I haven't done it since and hope to deter others from being wreckless as I was. This was also the first burnout I've done...and for reason

[Mchlgrrsn]

you can do burnouts, just dont do them on bridges that have a diffrent surface than the road. maybe on the other side of the bridge

[Mouse6.2]

Originally Posted by Dupree878

Well, traction control would try to stop wheel spin and the usual result is the engine bogging and you not getting a good launch. Fortunately, the manual trans cars have a built in launch control.

Hit the T/C button twice and the DIC will state StabiliTrac Competitive Mode. (Both the orange warning lights in the tach will be on)

Push in the clutch and floor the accelerator and hold both and the car will hold itself at 5500rpm.
Then come off the clutch aggressively, but smoothly (don't just step off it) and the car will manage wheel spin without bogging the engine for a launch.
I'm sure the pinnacle of drivers can beat the computer, but for 90% of people, this will be the fastest way to launch the car.

So I understand this, you are saying to just hold the go fast pedal to the floor and the engine will just sit there and bounce off the revlimiter while you let the clutch out? Just curious. I'm new to modern muscle. I sold my 65 impala SS that had a 396 with a TREMIC TKO 600 5sp in it with 3:31 posi. A different style of driving for sure from it to the Camaro.