Header install hitting steering shaft

[Mr. Unassailable]

I'm done with it. If one can not understand what I have said, then so be it.

BTW,
the quotes were to quote what I searched. I did not search with quotes.

[Scourage]

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ch-coated.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...-drinking.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ers-crack.html


I mean really? "cracked kooks headers" in google - About 591,000 results (0.22 seconds)... that didnt take long, literally.

You do know that when you search "cracked kooks headers" sans quotation marks in google, you will get hits that include variations of all three words, including "cracked headers".

[Mr. Unassailable]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Now I am not going to insult you, as I am certain you are pretty intelligent, and knowlegable on the issue. However I personally have have the headers we are discussing...and if you somehow think they are better than a premium, US made header, that seriously hurts your credibility. The Chinese headers have had issues with cracking, and warped flanges for years. That is why the Chinese stuff you see now has tubing twice the gauge of a US made header, and has half inch thick flanges. Otherwise the inferior materials tears in the benders, or cracks over time, and the flanges warp. Also, it is not even that scientific. We take both sets to shows so people can see the difference. You don't have to be a weld inspector to see that there is a huge difference in quality between a premium header and some overseas knock off.

OK, i'll be done after this. You spent time on that reply, and I'll give you the courtesy of a reply to your statements.
1. Never said OBX or any "knock off" was better quality. I specifically said the welds were crap. But I also specifically said that I performed a PMI test on the metal and it is not crap metal. The elements in the metal are on point. I can't really explain it any better, but I'll try. Everything is made of elements, I have a tool (specifically, this one http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/xrf-xr...d/delta-alloy/) that is made to detect the elements in a material. I do not care where the ore came out of the ground, where it was smelted, where it was rolled or forged. If the metal has the same % of each element then it is that grade of metal. Here is a basic chart of what you find in 316/317 steel.

When you pull the trigger on that PMI gun it tells you EXACTLY what is in that material. Don't care how many sets of what brand you have on your car, if the things contain the same % by weight of each element, then the base material will last the same amount of time. The only factor would be if the headers were "normalized". But you would need to do so after installing them on the car and that would mean holding around 800°F under your hood for a few hours. I doubt anyone is doing this. They can tell you they "stress relieved" the headers at the shop, but at the shop they were not under any load yet. Stress relieving or normalizing (basically the same shit) is to take the material over its critical temp as to realign the grain structure after the part has been in this case bolted up.
So to finish #1, metal is metal. If the elements are the same % by weight, it doesnt matter where it came from.

2. The flanges on the OBX headers on my car are .43" thick. Kooks offers .375" thick flanges. So I'm not sure if you did you homework on that one.

3. OBX headers 16 gauge (1.5mm) kooks headers 18 gauge (1.02mm), not sure where you got "twice the thickness" from, hurts your creditability though.........


Now I'm done.

[Mr. Unassailable]

Originally Posted by Scourage

You do know that when you search "cracked kooks headers" sans quotation marks in google, you will get hits that include variations of all three words, including "cracked headers".

Yeah, I also got results of cracked kooks headers.

Yall have devoured the cool aid. I thought I was bad with preaching about my Passport 9500ci....

[MarylandSpeed]

You are missing a few things. First off..the Chinese headers tend to be made in different factories with metals from different mills from one to run. The production goes to the cheapest bidding contract manufacturer. One run can be made in a factory that make surgical equipment. The next can be made in a cave in the woods of Mongolia somewhere. We have seen it here where one person's headers from the same Chinese brand look completely different from another. So what your set of headers happened to have, has no bearing on what someone else gets. Kooks on the other hand makes their headers in the same factory every time. All the stainless comes from the same mill less than a mile away.

You also missed my point on the thickness. What I am saying is for years Kooks and other brands have used the same 18 gauge tubing, and 3/8" flanges. This is designed from a race standpoint of wanting the lightest headers that do the job. The Chinese stuff initially tried to use that same gauge and thickness flanges had issues with warped flanges, and cracked headers from inferior materials. Then all the sudden all the tubing and flanges became thicker gauge. You only use thicker gauge because the quality of the lower gauge stuff was not holding up. I did not measure each one..but the differences are obvious...as the Chinese stuff is visibly thicker and heavier.

As for my credibility...I own both sets, have take pictures of them, and have had both sets on my car..and dyno tested them back to back. Not sure anyone else here can say that.

This is a no win...you obviously think you are an expert on the subject, and made the right decision. I think that while you may know a lot about metal or welding, but maybe not so much about headers. It is easy to apply your welding experiance to headers..but that does not mean you see the whole picture.

Quick story...I remember at a Camaro5fest, I had someone walk up, and go on about how he loved the welds on the set of Chinese headers in the booth. He was a welder his whole life, and knew this stuff inside out. Claimed the Chinese one's looked handmade, and the Kooks ones looked like they were made by a robot because of the weld beads or something. Was not possible for a human to weld that way. A Kooks rep who happened to be in the booth next to us came over and explained that they are made by hand on a rotisserie tool that the person had never seen.


As for the headers being the only cheap thing on the car, I see plenty of people around here that have Corsa Exhausts, CAI intakes, and ebay headers. There is some strange thing about headers that makes people who normally shop at Macy's go to the dollar store.

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

OK, i'll be done after this. You spent time on that reply, and I'll give you the courtesy of a reply to your statements.
1. Never said OBX or any "knock off" was better quality. I specifically said the welds were crap. But I also specifically said that I performed a PMI test on the metal and it is not crap metal. The elements in the metal are on point. I can't really explain it any better, but I'll try. Everything is made of elements, I have a tool (specifically, this one http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/xrf-xr...d/delta-alloy/) that is made to detect the elements in a material. I do not care where the ore came out of the ground, where it was smelted, where it was rolled or forged. If the metal has the same % of each element then it is that grade of metal. Here is a basic chart of what you find in 316/317 steel.


When you pull the trigger on that PMI gun it tells you EXACTLY what is in that material. Don't care how many sets of what brand you have on your car, if the things contain the same % by weight of each element, then the base material will last the same amount of time. The only factor would be if the headers were "normalized". But you would need to do so after installing them on the car and that would mean holding around 800°F under your hood for a few hours. I doubt anyone is doing this. They can tell you they "stress relieved" the headers at the shop, but at the shop they were not under any load yet. Stress relieving or normalizing (basically the same shit) is to take the material over its critical temp as to realign the grain structure after the part has been in this case bolted up.
So to finish #1, metal is metal. If the elements are the same % by weight, it doesnt matter where it came from.

2. The flanges on the OBX headers on my car are .43" thick. Kooks offers .375" thick flanges. So I'm not sure if you did you homework on that one.

3. OBX headers 16 gauge (1.5mm) kooks headers 18 gauge (1.02mm), not sure where you got "twice the thickness" from, hurts your creditability though.........


Now I'm done.

[Mr. Unassailable]

[QUOTE=MarylandSpeed;614244

You also missed my point on the thickness. What I am saying is for years Kooks and other brands have used the same 18 gauge tubing, and 3/8" flanges. [/QUOTE]

You missed my point that you first said...

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

That is why the Chinese stuff you see now has tubing twice the gauge of a US made header, and has half inch thick flanges.

When in fact its less than 1.5 X gauge and only .43" flange. If we're rounding off then .375 and .43 could both round to .4....

You're a salesman, I know why we will never agree on this.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

- Clayton. Official C5Fail4 hater.

[MarylandSpeed]

And again..the set I have could very well be different than the set you have..they were likely made in different places.

You can dismiss me as a salesperson. But your the weld inspecter who bought headers you knew had "crap welds" for a deal.

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

You missed my point that you first said...


When in fact its less than 1.5 X gauge and only .43" flange. If we're rounding off then .375 and .43 could both round to .4....

You're a salesman, I know why we will never agree on this.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

- Clayton. Official C5Fail4 hater.

[Mr. Unassailable]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

And again..the set I have could very well be different than the set you have..they were likely made in different places.

You can dismiss me as a salesperson. But your the weld inspecter who bought headers you knew had "crap welds" for a deal.

Oh, so you resort to that.... Way to be a good sponsor... One who pulled numbers out his ass to try to sell his product.

Yes, I did buy them knowing the welds would be unacceptable. I also know it doesn't cost 2,100 to make good welds. Being as your 2,200 kooks are about $100 of material and 2,100 in labor. Minus the cost of the cats of course.

Thanks for displaying your douchefullness.



- Clayton. Official C5Fail4 hater.

[Mr. Unassailable]

Please do remind me where you got your degree in metallurgy or engineering so I can not hire anyone that comes from there.

[ss/rs-matt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

Please do remind me where you got your degree in metallurgy or engineering so I can not hire anyone that comes from there.

Haha…love it. I've been down this road… trust me, your wasting your time. OBX could be made of the best space age heat resistant metal on the planet and these guys would still hate on them. Whats funny to me is stainless steel whether its made in china or in germany or in the US will outlast the regular steel the car is built from.

I tried sharing my good experience with OBX awhile back and my thread got shut down because of all the whining.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194114

[BlaqWhole]

Ok, just to cut through the bullshit...Maryland Speed, you make a LOT of claims...I for one would LOVE to see some proof of where you're getting your info. Like I said before...even if crap Chinese headers only lasted X amount of time/miles...the twice as expensive stuff would have to last at least twice as long to make it worthwhile, IMO...at the very minimal least...in order to prove it's value. There is absolutely NO header whatsoever that can make this claim on the 5th Gen Camaro...no matter how you slice it, it just cannot be done right now. You're fighting a losing battle for now. 10 years from now, maybe there will be some substantial evidence. But for now, you are just making yourself look ignorant.

Even if my headers last 3 years, I have a warranty. And if that warranty proves to be bullshit...I can still buy another brand new set of headers and STILL be below what some of the expensive brands cost. Now if those 2 sets in total last me 8-10 years...and 1 set of the twice as much brands lasts the same amount of time...then there is absolutely no advantage either way. This is all just speculation by the dubs. And what will it cost me? A few hours of daylight with a couple of buddies drinking Bud Black Crown...?? You're welcome Budweiser!!

I'm just sayin...and no dis to Litle or Axis or Maryland, or anyone else...but on the real, a lot of you guys speak totally out of disdain with abso no legitimate support of your claims. Nobody cares about the magical non-existent customers that soo many members remark about that had soo many problems. For real, why not take pics and post them? If I had as many issues as some of you so-called shops claim, I would be posting pics and threads on here as often as the "Which headers should I buy" and "Which exhaust sounds best", and "How will my car sound", and "What CAI will work best", and "Need Advice on this BS" threads that pop up every single day. It gets old when there is just speculation, accusations, and rumors with no proof. One shop claimed to have all these claims...and when he got called out...there was no evidence provided that such claims even existed. In fact, that was the ONLY OBX/cheap Chinese headers vs American headers thread that I've seen that has ever been locked and discarded. That says a lot to me.

Nobody cares if a shop won't install the headers. Heck, I did it by myself in a parking lot on ramps with a couple pieces of wood, some hand tools, and a small jack I got from PepBoys 5 years ago in 6 hours...and that was taking my sweet time right after working out for 2 hours in the gym. And if any shop refuses to do it, there are plenty of shops within a 5 mile radius of any of you guys that would love to take someone's money for such an easy install. So what really are any of you guys proving? ANYONE and their grandmother can install headers on this car and then test drive it to the bar and get wasted in less time than it would take Manti Te'o to find another fake GF. The OP here proved that anyone can install headers on these cars...even with some issues.

Regardless of anything, the OP here had some issues. And he posted up legit threads to show that other well known and more expensive brands have had similar issues. But I have yet to see the magical pixie dust imaginary customers that I've heard other members talk about. In fact, all I've seen are total raves about how good the cheap crap is...as much as the raves of the expensive crap. Put up or blah blah blah blah. Nobody needs to know about the periodic table or the composition of metals or work in a diecast/metal shop to know whether or not a brand of $500 headers works as good as a $1200 brand. You only sell Kooks?? Ok, nobody cares. I'll pay less than $600 for OBX and do the install myself instead of paying $1200 and then paying you another $200-$400 for the install and then another $400-$600 for the tune. Get it? My total exhaust with tune cost me $1569 grand total including all shipping...adding $170 shipped for the cost of the used DS tuner. That's what a set of Kooks with install at a shop would have cost. Way I see it...I'm ahead...

[Scourage]

I so want to see this thread die, but it gives me the chance to see what part of our country are willing to save a few hundred for crap stainless and sell out. I'm glad to see it's only few, three so far on my count.

[Mr. Unassailable]

Originally Posted by Scourage

crap stainless

I'd like to see your metallurgical report to support this claim.


- Clayton. Official C5Fail4 hater.

[Scourage]

If you are challenging US stainless vs China, you can stop right there.