1LE vs Z28

[JJKJ]

After the Z28 reveal yesterday, I'm sure a few of us 1LE owners have started contemplating an upgrade. Putting the aesthetics aside and only looking the performance aspects, I started evaluating an upgrade. Don't read any of my statements below as a cut or put-down of the Z28; I think it's an awesome concept and I look forward to seeing it in person. However, I think an objective look at all the facts are necessary to make a good decision.

The heart of the Z28--the LS7: Awesome engine. However, how do I put this...The LS7 is kinda like the really hot stripper you got to go home with at the end of the night. She's super hot and performs like you've never had before, but you're not really sure if you're going to wake up peeing fire in a few days. Seriously, coming from the Corvette world, the LS7 has a reputation as being an incredibly strong performer, but not the best reliability record. It has a known dropped valve issue that has caused the failure of not just a few engines but many. GM acknowledged the problem and said it was fixed; there have been fewer failures in the later years but still some occurring. A visit to any of the major Corvette forums to research the LS7 would be in order if you are seriously considering a Z28.

Suspension: Not a lot of specifics here so far, but no major revelations. I'm guessing any improvements the Z28 gets won't be too difficult to install on the 1LE. In other words, I'm not seeing a major suspension change like the MR on the ZL1. Also, GM is not advertising a huge increase in performance--only a .05 increase in lateral G capability. I'm guessing a large part of that increase comes from the wider wheel/tire combo. Granted, numbers on paper aren't everything and can't express improvements in balance, transition, etc. so this is a factor that will have to be evaluated on the road/track.

Weight: I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one. Weight reduction was a large part of the presentation yesterday, but I don't see the big deal yet. If we look at the numbers released in the dealer brochure for 2014, it does not give an exact number for the Z28 weight but says "300lbs less than the ZL1". The brochure lists the ZL1 weight at 4120lbs. That would make the Z28 an approximate 3820lbs. The same brochure lists the SS/1LE weight at 3875lbs. A mere 55lb difference is not significant to me for what you're giving up. Some of the weight savings measures done to the Z28 could also be done to the 1LE to narrow that gap--removing the trunk mat/trim, tire kit, and replacing the battery with a lighter option are all easy cheap options.

Seats: Nothing to say there but I think the Recaros look awesome. Replacing the stock 1LE seats with Recaros would also close some of the weight difference between the 1LE and Z28.

Brakes: This part I'm not sure about either. No doubt, the capability of the ceramics is off the charts. However, is it really needed or is it more bragging rights. The weight savings are undoubtedly real. The performance on the other hand...well, fade free brakes are wonderful, but I road raced a 4th gen and I would've given my left nut for the Brembos we have on our 1LEs. With proper fluid, pads, some added ducting and maintenance, I'm not sure where I see where the standard Brembos lack. With that said, the ceramic brakes are probably the coolest part of the Z28 in my opinion (still not sold on the LS7). They do come with a price though. As some have pointed out, the rotors are mega expensive to replace, but they do last much longer under track use than the ferrous alternative. You also have to be extremely careful when removing/installing wheels as one little chip in the rotor and they are toast. In fact, if like the Z06/ZR1 with the same brakes, you'll get a rotor protector to install while swapping wheels so you don't accidentally damage a rotor.

Dry sump: I see this as a big advantage to the Z28. The dry sump was added to the LS3 in the manual coupe Grand Sport because of engine failures occurring during sustained high-g cornering during road racing. The Grand Sport in stock form was capable of achieving g-loads capable of cavitating the wet-sump oil system resulting in engine failure. The 1LE/ZL1/Z28 are now capable of those same 1+ g sustained cornering loads. I would not doubt that we begin to see some LS3 failures on the track due to this issue now that our cars have achieved that level of lateral g performance.

So after playing devils advocate while evaluating the Z28 upgrade, where do I stand? Not sure. It's easy to pick each component apart on paper and make a valid argument either way. The real answer is how it feels/performs together as a package. That will come as the cars are built and hit the streets. I feel though that a 1LE with a quality heads/cam/bolt-on package will have the same/better acceleration performance as the Z28 with the LS7. Suspension and wheels/tires could also be upgraded to achieve the higher cornering capability. Cutting a few unnecessities from the 1LE will get close to the Z28 weight. Not sure about the brakes yet as I just got my 1LE and haven't had it to the track yet, so I don't know if the standard Brembos will have an issue or not, but I doubt it.

What I do know is that I'll enjoy driving my 1LE until I see some Z28s hitting the ground and how they perform. It will also come down to price. If the Z28 is a high $50k or more car, I don't see the value. So far, I have $37.5k in my 1LE and strongly feel I can obtain or exceed Z28 performance for under $10k more investment. If the Z28 is $10k or more than that final number, I'd have a hard time justifying the upgrade...that is unless a test drive blows me away.

[MarkSS]

To me, the question is all about price, and it looks like the price is going to be high for the Z/28. If it is 60K plus, it does not make sense to me... that is closing in on double the price of a 1SS 1LE. I like the whole package, even the one-speaker radio, but I can't make the jump to a car that is 70% more expensive than mine. Also, it is not that expensive to get to the 500 HP range in an LS3. CAI, Cam, Headers and you are there. That is the route I plan to go. That said, I am glad they are offering it, and I would consider picking up a used one some time in the future.

[gajagfan]

Great write up John. The big point is that the Z/28 is about 3 sec quicker per lap than a ZL1. That car is a couple 2 - 3 sec faster than our 1LE's. That's a big difference. I would imagine that the Z/28 will cost more than a ZL1. I also imagine that turning your 1LE into a Z/28 beater will cost much more than you think, unless you have the capabilities to do most all of the work and fabrication it will take on your own. I will even go as far as to say that the car you end up with will not be as enjoyable as your current 1LE is for you now. The gain of performance comes at just not a financial cost, but usually at a comfort cost also. I like the idea of the Z/28 also. I look at aspects of that car and think I might like that. For example, I am betting that the Recaro seats increase head room. I am tall, and that might be something I would like. I am sure many can find parts of that car that we would like to incorporate into our current cars, but I also bet there are many aspects of the Z/28 that we would not want to deal with anywhere but o the racetrack!

[LateBrakeU2]

Probably a safe assumption the Z will be north of 60k,and expect major mark up if you want to be the first kid on the block with one. Not sure how many they will be building, but they will sell every one of them. To me, the 1LE is the best peformance car out there under 40k. I love mine, and for the same reason i didn't want to pony up another 15k for the ZL1, I won't be either for a Z that will be 20k + more. Love the LS7,but still think the aesthetics on the 13 are superior to the 14. I think the 13 1LE is going to be looked at as unique due to the re skin on the 14, mine's Rally Red and that's gone next year along with other flavors.

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

Probably a safe assumption the Z will be north of 60k,and expect major mark up if you want to be the first kid on the block with one. Not sure how many they will be building, but they will sell every one of them. To me, the 1LE is the best peformance car out there under 40k. I love mine, and for the same reason i didn't want to pony up another 15k for the ZL1, I won't be either for a Z that will be 20k + more. Love the LS7,but still think the aesthetics on the 13 are superior to the 14. I think the 13 1LE is going to be looked at as unique due to the re skin on the 14, mine's Rally Red and that's gone next year along with other flavors.

As an owner of a 1969 Camaro, I agree. I think my soon to be here 2013 ILE is going to be unique because it will be the only year that the vehicle in its current appearance was available. Pretty cool. I so look forward to the picture of the 2 of them side by side!

[So Cal Camaro]

My take on this is the wheels/tires make up most of the improved lateral G capability...if you look at the specs of the Pirelli tires, they are 60 treadwear...that is a seriously sticky tire....

reading on the Porsche forums, the Pirelli tires make a huge difference....consider that the GY that are stock on our 1LE's are 220 Treadwear...and the wheels on the Z28 are 11" wide front and 11.5" in the rear, add the wider stickier tires and you can hang with the Z28, braking I already added CTSV fronts on mine, so good pads/fluid will keep it close....

I want those seats like many others, but given the cost and trade offs, will stick with my 1LE....

[1BadAction]

I've put 2100 miles on my 1LE in less than a month, no way in hell I'd want to do it without mylink, AC, sound deadening, etc. People asking if 1LE owners are upset about the Z28 is nearly as absurd as someone saying "you should have bought a COPO"

I like the brakes, and I like the Recaros on the Z28, but as JJKJ said, I would have given my left nut for a set of brakes like we have just a couple years back. I like the 1LE because it's a stiffer better handling street car with excellent binders and gearing. The chances of me ever using it near its capability are extremely slim.

[JJKJ]

Originally Posted by gajagfan

Great write up John. The big point is that the Z/28 is about 3 sec quicker per lap than a ZL1. That car is a couple 2 - 3 sec faster than our 1LE's. That's a big difference. I would imagine that the Z/28 will cost more than a ZL1. I also imagine that turning your 1LE into a Z/28 beater will cost much more than you think, unless you have the capabilities to do most all of the work and fabrication it will take on your own. I will even go as far as to say that the car you end up with will not be as enjoyable as your current 1LE is for you now. The gain of performance comes at just not a financial cost, but usually at a comfort cost also. I like the idea of the Z/28 also. I look at aspects of that car and think I might like that. For example, I am betting that the Recaro seats increase head room. I am tall, and that might be something I would like. I am sure many can find parts of that car that we would like to incorporate into our current cars, but I also bet there are many aspects of the Z/28 that we would not want to deal with anywhere but o the racetrack!

Thanks. I got a little long with the OP but oh well.

I don't think it will take as much as you think to make a Z28-level performer out of a 1LE. I know the ZL1 track times are showing 2-3 sec quicker than the 1LE. However, if you read the reviews, the 1LE is not falling down in the handling department; in fact the opposite, it is actually receiving accolades as the best handling Camaro to date. I can't speak either way because I haven't driven either on the track (yet). What that means to me though is that the 1LE has the handling part of the equation down and only lacks in power when compared to the track times of the ZL1. Yes, I do my own work when it comes to engine mods except tuning. The average rwhp ZL1s are putting down is around 500. To get an LS3 to that power level is probably in the $7000 range (heads, cam, LT's, intake, TB and tune). That leaves $3000 to look at suspension or aero upgrades to hone in on the Z28.

I still contend that a lot of the time improvements the Z28 is seeing comes from the wheel/tire combo. As So Cal Camaro points out, it's not just the increased width but also the tire compound. There's a huge difference in track times between a DOT street tire and a DOT track tire. I used to run Hoosiers and BFG's on the track and their treadwear ratings were 40 and 60 respectively. The Pirelli's fall into that category. Much like the Michelin Sport Cups on the Z06s and ZR1s. Moving to a DOT track tire from a DOT street tire (even as good as the GY's are) on most tracks would be measured in seconds rather than fractions of a second.

As we've both said though, it comes down to how it performs together as a package. Putting the right component on a car with other improvements (ie weight reduction) creates a synergy that sometimes can't be measured on paper.

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by JJKJ

Thanks. I got a little long with the OP but oh well.

I don't think it will take as much as you think to make a Z28-level performer out of a 1LE. I know the ZL1 track times are showing 2-3 sec quicker than the 1LE. However, if you read the reviews, the 1LE is not falling down in the handling department; in fact the opposite, it is actually receiving accolades as the best handling Camaro to date. I can't speak either way because I haven't driven either on the track (yet). What that means to me though is that the 1LE has the handling part of the equation down and only lacks in power when compared to the track times of the ZL1. Yes, I do my own work when it comes to engine mods except tuning. The average rwhp ZL1s are putting down is around 500. To get an LS3 to that power level is probably in the $7000 range (heads, cam, LT's, intake, TB and tune). That leaves $3000 to look at suspension or aero upgrades to hone in on the Z28.

I still contend that a lot of the time improvements the Z28 is seeing comes from the wheel/tire combo. As So Cal Camaro points out, it's not just the increased width but also the tire compound. There's a huge difference in track times between a DOT street tire and a DOT track tire. I used to run Hoosiers and BFG's on the track and their treadwear ratings were 40 and 60 respectively. The Pirelli's fall into that category. Much like the Michelin Sport Cups on the Z06s and ZR1s. Moving to a DOT track tire from a DOT street tire (even as good as the GY's are) on most tracks would be measured in seconds rather than fractions of a second.

As we've both said though, it comes down to how it performs together as a package. Putting the right component on a car with other improvements (ie weight reduction) creates a synergy that sometimes can't be measured on paper.

I think you are correct regarding the wheel / tire comments. To be honest, the tires coming on the 1LE are a bit of a concern for me. The temp concerns, as well as wear concerns, are real when you consider the car as a daily driver, which is what ours will be. I am sure the Pirellis are even more of a concern in both those departments (not to mention cost). I guess I really just can't wait to get the car, and start the learning curve!

[Mgizzle]

I must admit if money wasnt an issue the z28 would be in my garage. The car is amazing and significantly more track focused than the 1le.... However, because I am broke and racing costs money,.the 1le is perfect for me. Great that chevrolet builds cars for so many different needs and customers.

[WHAMMO]

Z28 hands down...but the 1LE is still the real deal for the price. 1le with a 427 option would be the best scenario ever.

[Number23]

Disclaimer: I own a 2012 Boss 302

Were it my money, I'd get the 1LE all day long, it's by far the best model in the Camaro lineup. Lots of the good stuff from the ZL1 but 20K less.

The Z28 will be fast at a track day, but that's about it. Off the track, who wants a car without sound isolation or stereo? Besides, with some bolts ons and a tune, you could probably get north of 450hp.

[LMC2013]

I don't think I'd consider the z28 an upgrade..it's a track car from what I've heard..no ac..one speaker...so for my daily driver I'd rather have the 1le..from what I'm hearing about speculation on price I might be better off with a Z06 as well

[Synner]

Oh my god, no bluetooth in a track car.
People are ripping out sound insulation to go fast and a whole lot more. Need to stop imparting daily driver amenities/mindsets on a track car. I never listen to my radio and will be ripping out as much as I can that won't be visually noticeable to include insulation. It will be loud, nasty, and not good for holding quiet conversations with the wife. Not everyone needs a docile street car. Those are parked outside the garage.

The Z28 is exactly what it should be, a race car. It could be daily driven with different tires just as easily as you can drag race in a smart car. Not for everyone but someone out there is doing it. People just need to broaden their aperture and not think about things solely from the perspective of how they use their own Camaro.