Strategies for Preventing Timing Chain Stretching (Wear): what can we do?

[PieNsky]

This is the first of three videos that I watched and used to determine if I could do it. You can not use just this video to do it. You have to have a book too.


Part two



This doesn't show you how to do everything, but it is very, very close.

[Mouse6.2]

This V6 engine is a bad design in terms of that, it just beats the oil to death. At least in all of my used oil analysis reports for our Acadia, I can't go past 5k miles. It is at that point that the oil is shot, no matter what brand I use. So far the best results I have gotten are from AMSOIL's AFF 0w-40. I'm currently running AEL 5w-30 which is spec'ed for BMW LL-04. I need to change the oil now since I'm at 5k and will be sending a sample off as well to see how well it held up. In my case on the Acadia, the oil shears every time, plus the DI is causing high fuel dilution which beats the oil as well.

AMSOIL has a TSB out for earlier models. Basically informing the public to follow GM's advice on getting the OLM re-calibrated and going with shorter oil change intervals. Again this is on the Acadia and other Lambda platform vehicles. It kind of surprised me that it didn't follow on to the CTS and Camaro's.

If you want to hear about timing chain issues just go over to the Acadia site, but what they have worst than that is the transmissions going out. It seems to be the number one failure on the Lambda platform.

So for the most part, as far as I can see it, the best you can do is run a good quality oil and change it out no later than 5k miles, even pull a sample and see how it is doing. Everyone's driving conditions/styles are different and so will the results of their UOA.

I used either Blackstone Labs or Dyson Analysis Advanced Analysis for my UOA's. If I want the full report I go with Dyson, he sends out a PDF along with a .wav file that you can listen to as he goes over your report. Then in the end he makes recommendations and will answer any questions you e-mail to him.

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by Mouse6.2

.I'm currently running AEL 5w-30 which is spec'ed for BMW LL-04. I need to change the oil now since I'm at 5k and will be sending a sample off as well to see how well it held up. In my case on the Acadia, the oil shears every time, plus the DI is causing high fuel dilution which beats the oil as well.
..

Never use BMW LL-04 speced oil in North America, as its additive package is not intended for 10% ethanol fuels, and also not intended for high sulfur fuels like we have in North America. BMW warns about that constantly. I have an 07 BMW 530, and BMW warns only to use an LL-01 oil in it, as its got a much stronger longer lasting additive package in the presence of North American fuels.

Its confusing I know. Weird, but true, that LL-01 oils are better than LL-04 oils. For example, Mobil1 0w-40 is an LL-01 oil, although I don't know if I would use a "40" in our LLT V6's since we have piston-underside-cooling jets squirting, and I wonder if a thicker hot-running oil might not squirt as much cooling mass onto the pistons. So maybe why GM says use a "30" only, although I personally believe a "20" would get a lot of oil up to the pistons too.

Probably the best BMW LL-01 oil is the Castrol 0w-30, a weight our LLT V6s can use, its also famously known as just German Castrol (GC).

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by Mouse6.2

This V6 engine is a bad design in terms of that, it just beats the oil to death. At least in all of my used oil analysis reports for our Acadia, I can't go past 5k miles. It is at that point that the oil is shot, no matter what brand I use. So far the best results I have gotten are from AMSOIL's AFF 0w-40. I'm currently running AEL 5w-30 which is spec'ed for BMW LL-04. I need to change the oil now since I'm at 5k and will be sending a sample off as well to see how well it held up. In my case on the Acadia, the oil shears every time, plus the DI is causing high fuel dilution which beats the oil as well.

AMSOIL has a TSB out for earlier models. Basically informing the public to follow GM's advice on getting the OLM re-calibrated and going with shorter oil change intervals. Again this is on the Acadia and other Lambda platform vehicles. It kind of surprised me that it didn't follow on to the CTS and Camaro's.

If you want to hear about timing chain issues just go over to the Acadia site, but what they have worst than that is the transmissions going out. It seems to be the number one failure on the Lambda platform.

So for the most part, as far as I can see it, the best you can do is run a good quality oil and change it out no later than 5k miles, even pull a sample and see how it is doing. Everyone's driving conditions/styles are different and so will the results of their UOA.

I used either Blackstone Labs or Dyson Analysis Advanced Analysis for my UOA's. If I want the full report I go with Dyson, he sends out a PDF along with a .wav file that you can listen to as he goes over your report. Then in the end he makes recommendations and will answer any questions you e-mail to him.

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. There has to be a good solution somewhere. Also, I'm curious now that the GM Lambdas (i.e. Acadias, Traverses...) have been out for a few years if Consumer Reports surveys are numerous enough to get a good look at reliability rates. Also Cadillacs with this V6.

Funny, u mentioned Amsoil has a bulletin telling people to buy more oil from them.... Suspicious...
Actually, the engineering studies showing that used oil actually has lower wear rates than new oil was done by a Ford and a Conoco (oil products!) engineer, and the marketing department at Conoco, and dealer service network at Ford, probably wanted to bury their findings similar to how cigarrette companies do it.

Also I noticed that GM's Service Bulletin weblink did not mention the poor metallurgy of the chains that the European bulletin did. But GM North America would never cover any facts up, right? I know GM is also upset about this since they pay for fixes and they won't get any more government bailouts. (I had to go there, I know, shame on me....).

[KMPrenger]

So I know you say your running Pennzoil Ultra or whatever, but the findings from the Amsoil PDF you posted above seem to suggest their oil is best for wear rates on the chain.

So Almond...what oil do you recommend? My car is a June 2009 build with currently around 13,600 miles on it. I've always changed the oil using Mobil 1 and an AC Delco filter every 3K to 4K miles...except when she was new I changed the oil at 1,500 miles.

I put a lot of care into my car, but I'm not planning to do an engine flush every year, and I don't really want to mix anything. Just use the best oil and go. Maybe I'm lazy lol.

[scrming]

Originally Posted by Mouse6.2

This V6 engine is a bad design in terms of that, it just beats the oil to death. .

THIS!!!

I know one of the engineers who actually WORKED on the HFV6. When he seen my Camaro with the LLT the first thing he told me was to make sure I change my oil really OFTEN and don't even think about using the OLM! He couldn't stress frequent oil changes enough!

We also had an Acadia. We had the timing chains replaced at 32,000 miles and 82,000 miles, at which point the wife told me to get rid of the Acadia. I called my engineer friend to ask him about the 2011(or was it 2012) Acadia and if I would run into the timing chain issue, even though there was the supposed upgraded chains. He explained the 2011 (or was it 12) was still going to have the underlying issue because the chains themselves were NOT the actual problem and it was a larger design issue that hadn't been corrected yet... He was thinking it probably wouldn't be corrected until MY 2012 or 13 .... Needless to say I didn't buy another Acadia...

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

So I know you say your running Pennzoil Ultra or whatever, but the findings from the Amsoil PDF you posted above seem to suggest their oil is best for wear rates on the chain.

So Almond...what oil do you recommend? My car is a June 2009 build with currently around 13,600 miles on it. I've always changed the oil using Mobil 1 and an AC Delco filter every 3K to 4K miles...except when she was new I changed the oil at 1,500 miles.

I put a lot of care into my car, but I'm not planning to do an engine flush every year, and I don't really want to mix anything. Just use the best oil and go. Maybe I'm lazy lol.

You're not lazy, its smart to be wary of mixing stuff, on your own, into a chemical stew that tribologists have labored over to find the right balance of anti-sludge, anti-foam, anti-wear, etc. I'm leaning toward just using the high-moly Mazda engine oil, one of the few modern synthetics out there that has high moly and is used in very-high-compression (theirs is 13:1 gasoline!!!) direct-injection engines. At the very least, we shouldn't use any of the part-synthetic-blend oils out there that just barely meets dexos1 specs; go full synthetic at least.

I thought Pennzoil Ultra was a good choice because I'm not sure if I fully trust Amsoil, thats all. Pennzoil has SOPUS behind it, and some of their other Ultra oils (the 0w-40) runs in Indycar Penske right out of the bottle, and another Euro 5w-40 of theirs runs in Ferraris. I trust their products, and the Amsoil test study shows their SN/GF-5 5w-30 Pennzoil Ultra doing well, almost as well as Amsoil, not much difference. (Its Amsoil doing the study, so... not sure about their full honesty when considering all oil attributes.) Mobil1 products usually seem to do poorly when anybody tests them, so I can skip their marketing claims, although many people are loyal to their products for some unknown reason.

Flushes shouldn't be a problem, as its just throwing it in there for 5 minutes of idling, right before changing all the oil.

Easy things to do are to switch to a better oil filter and install a strong-magnet (Dimple) drain plug, that helps some.

I know its somehow controversial to only change half the oil every other or 2 oil changes in a row, but the SAE studies actually say that is better to reduce wear.

Here is what I am thinking about doing, based on all the info presented above:

--Change the oil filter at each OLM flag.

--Change only half the engine oil at each OLM flag.

--Every 3rd oil change, put in an engine flush for 5 minutes prior to changing ALL the oil.

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by scrming

THIS!!!

I know one of the engineers who actually WORKED on the HFV6. When he seen my Camaro with the LLT the first thing he told me was to make sure I change my oil really OFTEN and don't even think about using the OLM! He couldn't stress frequent oil changes enough!

We also had an Acadia. We had the timing chains replaced at 32,000 miles and 82,000 miles, at which point the wife told me to get rid of the Acadia. I called my engineer friend to ask him about the 2011(or was it 2012) Acadia and if I would run into the timing chain issue, even though there was the supposed upgraded chains. He explained the 2011 (or was it 12) was still going to have the underlying issue because the chains themselves were NOT the actual problem and it was a larger design issue that hadn't been corrected yet... He was thinking it probably wouldn't be corrected until MY 2012 or 13 .... Needless to say I didn't buy another Acadia...

Did your engineer friend say that the SAE Ford/Conoco studies about used oil being better for wear rates was bogus? Did he say the European service bulletin for the same timing chain part number was wrong when it said the chain material properties were partly to blame? Could be he was providing the corporate GM response, the easy-for-GM fix of weekly oil changes. Wonder what "larger design issue" he was referring to, maybe more oil flow over the chain, wider oil passages, guessing.... Certainly the European service bulletin news which indicated the new chains have carbonitriding added is going to help.

[scrming]

Originally Posted by Car_Almond

Did your engineer friend say that the SAE Ford/Conoco studies about used oil being better for wear rates was bogus? Did he say the European service bulletin for the same timing chain part number was wrong when it said the chain material properties were partly to blame? Could be he was providing the corporate GM response.

He was not providing the GM corporate response.... he said plenty of details about the HFV6 and if he didn't know would ask a co-worker... Even tried to help me out when I was working with Vince trying to figure out some of the LLT tuning..

As far as the wear studies, you have to remember we are talking about one very specific engine that had a design flaw, so an overview study may not apply...

He talked about how when this issue first started to surface they went after the chain supplier saying the chains were the issues and that they went back and forth with the supplier... eventually it was determined that the oil in the LLT gets "dirty" much more quicker than anyone ever anticipated and the dirt in the oil was causing the chains to wear out prematurely... eventually this lead to the OLM recall notice...

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by scrming

THIS!!!

We also had an Acadia. We had the timing chains replaced at 32,000 miles and 82,000 miles..

that the oil in the LLT gets "dirty" much more quicker than anyone ever anticipated and the dirt in the oil was causing the chains to wear out prematurely..

At least the Acadia/Traverse/Aura (Lambda) owners can use a special spin-on oil filter that is capable of getting out silica/dirt in the 2-30 micron range ( http://www.microgreenfilter.com/ ). Wish Camaros and Cadillacs had that option, we don't, we use cartridge oil filters.

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by scrming

.
As far as the wear studies, you have to remember we are talking about one very specific engine that had a design flaw, so an overview study may not apply......

The overview study was using several taxis, real-world, and it corroborates other field tests from other people showing that wear per mile (wear rate) for fresh, clean, new oil is higher than for used oil. So if we put fresh, clean oil in our LLT V6 we can expect higher wear rates for a while anyway.

I appreciate that our LLT V6s are harsh on oil, but the answer is not to frequently give it fresh, clean, new oil if we want chain wear to minimize.

[Car_Almond]

Originally Posted by scrming

.He talked about how when this issue first started to surface they went after the chain supplier saying the chains were the issues and that they went back and forth with the supplier... eventually it was determined that the oil in the LLT gets "dirty" much more quicker than anyone ever anticipated and the dirt in the oil was causing the chains to wear out prematurely... eventually this lead to the OLM recall notice...

And yet still the new part number chains had better metallurgy changes (and maybe thicker, not sure about that part).. The supplier must have conceded something based on parts samples that were tested for surface hardness.

[Mouse6.2]

Originally Posted by Car_Almond

I trust their products, and the Amsoil test study shows their SN/GF-5 5w-30 Pennzoil Ultra doing well, almost as well as Amsoil, not much difference. (Its Amsoil doing the study, so... not sure about their full honesty when considering all oil attributes.)

One thing you have to remember is anything that is published and is false information then the party publishing that information is open to a lawsuit. That being said, if any of the info in the AMSOIL study was false then AMSOIL would be liable.

The other thing with a study like that is that it is in a controlled environment. Everyone lives in a different area of the country and their driving style is different as well as long trips versus short. So what might work for you might not work for me. I think it is best to find the oil that protects the best for your driving style/conditions and stick with it. The only way to find that out is with a UOA.

As I stated, no matter what brand oil I have used so far in our Acadia, I can't go past 5k miles because the oil is depleted. What gets me is there is an individual on the Acadia forum running 10k oil change intervals with Mobil 1 and he seems to be doing just fine with no issues. I offered to pay for a UOA, but he declined.

[scrming]

Originally Posted by Car_Almond

And yet still the new part number chains had better metallurgy changes (and maybe thicker, not sure about that part).. The supplier must have conceded something based on parts samples that were tested for surface hardness.

I've seen no evidence that the new part number means any meaningful changes in the timing chains....

you seem bent on blaming the chain... and that is certainly your right... however my sources say the new chains still stretch and wear long before they should...