What makes the a6 faster?

[11B250]

I've seen all these threads about how the a6 is faster. GM data shows its also about .1 faster on 1/4 mile and 0-60...

I looked at the gearing and its def shorter gears. However the final axle ratio is 3.23 instead of 3.73 which probably keeps things about the same.

Why didn't they just make an auto with the same gearing as the manual? (Curious behind the engineering stand point)

With the manual being lighter, availability of launch control and a good driver, I just don't understand how the auto is faster and better.

And if they advertise the a6 so much, why not run the a6 in nurburing? Why not put this excellent transmission in the z28?

Looking for some answers for the curious

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[Tampa Tuning]

its about shift times.

lets say apples to apples when the cars are set up the same. One car you are shifting. One car the computer in the car is shifting. The computer will execute the shift faster than you can.

From a simple old school stand point, automatics are better in the 1/4 mile race and manuals are better on the road race because you can hold it in an RPM range.........................but introduction of paddle shifters will work just as well now in the road race.



Phil

[DRKS1D3]

It MAY be quicker in the 1/4 mile depending on the driver. Why you ask? With an auto, all you have to do is slam the gas pedal to the floor (more or less), with a manual, the driver needs to clutch and shift the car. With an auto, all the human error of shifting is eliminated. Simple right? Now, let's this thread before it gets ugly in here.

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by 11B250

I've seen all these threads about how the a6 is faster. GM data shows its also about .1 faster on 1/4 mile and 0-60...

I looked at the gearing and its def shorter gears. However the final axle ratio is 3.23 instead of 3.73 which probably keeps things about the same.

Why didn't they just make an auto with the same gearing as the manual? (Curious behind the engineering stand point)

With the manual being lighter, availability of launch control and a good driver, I just don't understand how the auto is faster and better.

And if they advertise the a6 so much, why not run the a6 in nurburing? Why not put this excellent transmission in the z28?

Looking for some answers for the curious

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

I personally think it is gearing and the abitlity to modulate the lauch a bit better. you have much lower gear in first to get momentum out of the hole.

On a road coase I don't think the computer is quite smart enough yet to really hit the gearing right on through all the terain changes or it could just be the gear splits are not optium.

wide ratio trannies can be better at the drag strip and the auto is more of a wide ratio box IMO.

Some will say shifting speed but I don't completely agree because of the gearing difference in the car. if first gear was the same overall ratio as the manual I think the car would be more similar to the manual in ET.

use the current 5.0 mustang as an example. it has a very low ratio first and drag races very well. the people who tremec swap loose ET without correcting that gearing. that lower fist gear helps its ET.

[11B250]

Originally Posted by hognutz

I personally think it is gearing and the abitlity to modulate the lauch a bit better. you have much lower gear in first to get momentum out of the hole.

On a road coase I don't think the computer is quite smart enough yet to really hit the gearing right on through all the terain changes or it could just be the gear splits are not optium.

wide ratio trannies can be better at the drag strip and the auto is more of a wide ratio box IMO.

Some will say shifting speed but I don't completely agree because of the gearing difference in the car. if first gear was the same overall ratio as the manual I think the car would be more similar to the manual in ET.

use the current 5.0 mustang as an example. it has a very low ratio first and drag races very well. the people who tremec swap loose ET without correcting that gearing. that lower fist gear helps its ET.

Is there some type of calculator/formula (just for my curiousity as always) that would show a comparable ratio with the gear and the axle ratios? A6 being 4.03 and 3.23 vs m6 2.66 and 3.73

it sounds like the a6 is much better geared, but marginally faster on 1/4 and 0-60 (with a good driver that can shift)

and I do agree that first 60 feet is what makes the difference in 1/4 racing.

I'm so torn between the two that I think my sole decision is gonna be the first VR/black wheel ZL1 I find will be the one whether it has an auto or a manual. sure do love driving manual, but sure do HATE driving it in traffic... Getting a sports car like this really makes me cringe when I think about getting an auto, but i'm thinking f body days I guess.

[Norm Peterson]

Here's a gearing and speed chart for the two ZL1 transmissions with their axle gearing and the ZL1's standard rear tire size. You'll notice that the 6L90 has shorter gearing (read potentially better acceleration) for most of the first 65 mph or so (I'm looking down the 6250 rpm column). From there up to 135 or so it looks like a wash, but beyond that the manual tranny car should pull a bit stronger.

Something that doesn't show up in this table is the effects the torque converter has. For one thing, it can multiply the actual engine output torque under certain conditions involving its "slippage". It *may* allow for slightly softer 'hits' on upshifts than you'd generally get with fast clutch work with a manual (meaning maybe you'd get slightly better mechanical grip for a fraction of a second on each shift here).


Had to add the ZL1 tranny ratios first, so thanks for prodding me into getting that done and the spreadsheet updated.


Norm

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by 11B250

Is there some type of calculator/formula (just for my curiousity as always) that would show a comparable ratio with the gear and the axle ratios? A6 being 4.03 and 3.23 vs m6 2.66 and 3.73

it sounds like the a6 is much better geared, but marginally faster on 1/4 and 0-60 (with a good driver that can shift)

and I do agree that first 60 feet is what makes the difference in 1/4 racing.

I'm so torn between the two that I think my sole decision is gonna be the first VR/black wheel ZL1 I find will be the one whether it has an auto or a manual. sure do love driving manual, but sure do HATE driving it in traffic... Getting a sports car like this really makes me cringe when I think about getting an auto, but i'm thinking f body days I guess.

The ZL1 has limitations in the quarter mile and the biggest is that the stock tires are unable to manage the full power of the engine without wheelspin. The automatic robs roughly 5% more power than the manual. The way this happens is adventitious in the quarter mile because the hard thrust of the engine is absorbed by the transmission torque converter reducing tire spin, it is extremely difficult to modulate this with a clutch. I believe the auto can shift slightly faster than a good driver but it is costing horsepower everywhere. If you have more than enough power this is not a bad thing. It doesn't matter how much power you have if you cannot get traction. The manuals make more power on every dyno but it is generally unusable in a 10 to 12 second quarter mile run. Look at the trap speeds and the manual cars are faster because they cannot get traction but once they do they have less power parasite from the transmission so they get going better.

If you plan on drag racing at tracks with lights and slips, unless you are a glutton for punishment, do yourself a favor and get the auto. But after that first 60 feet the world belongs to the manual car. That is my opinion.

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by 11B250

Is there some type of calculator/formula (just for my curiousity as always) that would show a comparable ratio with the gear and the axle ratios? A6 being 4.03 and 3.23 vs m6 2.66 and 3.73

it sounds like the a6 is much better geared, but marginally faster on 1/4 and 0-60 (with a good driver that can shift)

and I do agree that first 60 feet is what makes the difference in 1/4 racing.

I'm so torn between the two that I think my sole decision is gonna be the first VR/black wheel ZL1 I find will be the one whether it has an auto or a manual. sure do love driving manual, but sure do HATE driving it in traffic... Getting a sports car like this really makes me cringe when I think about getting an auto, but i'm thinking f body days I guess.

there just a little bit apples and oranges really. once you hit 4th gear lets say the manual car should have the advantage. 1:1 3.73 vs 3.23 and no power loss throught the converter.

I think in the 1/4 mile though the gearing advanage goes the way of the auto.

what stopped me from looking at the auto was the $2600 extra. I have only spent $1500 and my car pulls harder than a stock auto for sure. It is a bear to launch though no two ways about it. I think if your going to drag race alot the auto might be a better choice. I find them eaiser to launch I just think a manual is funner to drive but that is my personal opinion other peopel may think the other way.

in traffic though the auto is just easier but an extra $1300 in tax just sucks all the way around. my zl1 is my toy car and I always have a manual in my toy I just love rowing gears myself. If I built another bracket car it would be an auto or lenko though for sure.

[SamHouseIII]

Does weight have a play in it?

I also thought I read some where there was less rotating mass.

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by SamHouseIII

Does weight have a play in it?

I also thought I read some where there was less rotating mass.

they are both very similar in weight if I remeber right. maybe 25lbs heavier on the auto or so.

[JFWJR179]

[QUOTE=11B250;7232045]I've seen all these threads about how the a6 is faster. GM data shows its also about .1 faster on 1/4 mile and 0-60...

Looking for some answers for the curious

Al Oppenheiser discussing ZL1 A6 tap shift automatic vs manual:

[Tyler H]

It boils down to technology! The auto is extremely advanced! The manual is all for that guy who wants "the feel". I had the manual in my 2ssrs and now have the A6 and I was nervous when I ordered my car but after having my first season under my belt I can honestly say I prefer the auto. Manuals are a hoot but thie auto is precision! Why do ya think Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer manuals anymore. F1 and Indy cars the same! I see a trend here! It suck to admit but we humans will never match the shift times and precision the auto has in this car! The stick gives the fun factor absolutely but the auto will give you the same result once you learn how to drive it! ( ya I said learn to drive an auto) People who have driving the auto aggressively know what I'm talking about! It takes more skill than one may think. With that said HANG IN THERE NASCAR with the 4spd forever!

[Spartan01]

True, but if I am not mistaken, the Ferrarri's and lamborghini's offer the manual but it is computer controlled and shifted, as opposed to the camaro which is an auto tranny with paddle shifting.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Tyler H

It boils down to technology! The auto is extremely advanced! The manual is all for that guy who wants "the feel". I had the manual in my 2ssrs and now have the A6 and I was nervous when I ordered my car but after having my first season under my belt I can honestly say I prefer the auto. Manuals are a hoot but thie auto is precision! Why do ya think Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer manuals anymore. F1 and Indy cars the same! I see a trend here! It suck to admit but we humans will never match the shift times and precision the auto has in this car! The stick gives the fun factor absolutely but the auto will give you the same result once you learn how to drive it! ( ya I said learn to drive an auto) People who have driving the auto aggressively know what I'm talking about! It takes more skill than one may think. With that said HANG IN THERE NASCAR with the 4spd forever!

There is a huge difference between the "automatic" transmissions in the Ferrari and Lambo than what is available in our Camaro. If you pull the trans on a Ferrari it is a manual transmission with a dual clutch, throw out bearing and gearbox like the Camaro manual, not a torque converter, no bands, no slushbox. It is a manual transmission shifted automatically. Ferrari publically stated it no longer sells manual transmissions because the warranty claims for blown engines was significantly greater with manuals due to drivers pushing the engine into the red zone on downshifting. The auto sortware will not allow the downshift until the engine is in safe rpm range.

The torque converter auto transmission has improved significantly but it is not as efficient. It converts some horsepower to heat. If GM ever decides to do a sequential manual gearbox or DCT or whatever name you call an automatically shifted clutch based transmission I'll jump right on that. I love them on ferrari's and lambos. Until then the dyno does not lie, the current torque converter transmission is robbing 5% more power than the manual. I'll work the gearbox myself.