When Was The Last Time You Worked Out At The Gym

[CFD]

I'm still kicking lol. Got up this morning and the walnuts are almost gone, still no pain but still a little swelling so I went to the shop and got some work done including loading a 175lb chuck on my lathe with no problems. Came home and called my medical center but they were booked and couldn't see me. They wanted to know if I thought it was an emergency and I told them I didn't think so but I had taken a picture of what concerned me, I e-mailed it to them and their response was ," that looks like a hernia". lol. Anyhow they're going to try to see me tomorrow, if that doesn't work, on Monday.

[CFD]

I just received an interesting e-mail about a popular oral prohormone supplement. Thought I'd share it for anyone interested.




Prohormone supplement 3b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-17-one enhances resistance training gains but impairs user health

Journal of Applied Physiology December 31, 2013 jap.00616.2013

Abstract

Purpose: Prohormone supplements(PS) are recognized not to impart anabolic or ergogenic effects in men, but the research supporting these conclusions is dated. The Anabolic Steroid Control Act was amended in 2004; the viability of PS have not been evaluated since that time. Methods:17 resistance-trained males(23±1yrs; 13.1±1.5% body fat) were randomly assigned to receive either 330mg/d 3b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-17-one(PROHORMONE; n=9) or sugar(PLACEBO; n=8) p.o. and complete a 4 week(16 session) structured resistance-training program. Body composition, muscular strength, circulating lipids, and markers of liver and kidney dysfunction were assessed at study onset and termination.

Results:PROHORMONE increased lean body mass by 6.3±1.2%, decreased fat body mass by 24.6±7.1%, and increased their back squat 1-RM and competition total by 14.3±1.5% and 12.8±1.1%; respectively. These improvements exceeded(p<0.05) PLACEBO, who increased lean body mass by 0.5±0.8%, reduced fat body mass by 9.5±3.6%, and increased back squat 1-RM and competition total by 5.7±1.7% and 5.9±1.7%; respectively. PROHORMONE also experienced multiple adverse effects. These included a 38.7±4.0% reduction in HDL (p<0.01), a 32.8±15.05% elevation in LDL (p<0.01), and elevations of 120.0±22.6% and 77.4±12.0% in LDL/HDL and C/HDL; respectively(both p<0.01). PROHORMONE also exhibited elevations in serum creatinine (19.6±4.3%;p<0.01) and AST(113.8±61.1%;p=0.05), as well as reductions in serum albumin (5.1±1.9%;p=0.04), ALP(16.4±4.7%;p=0.04), and GFR(18.0±3.3%;p=0.04). None of these values changed(all p>0.05) in PLACEBO.

Conclusion:The oral PS 3b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-17-one improves body composition and muscular strength. However, these changes come at a significant cost. Cardiovascular health and liver function are particularly compromised. Given these findings, we feel the harm associated with this particular PS outweighs any potential benefit.

[Msmall143]

Originally Posted by DieselAries1

I even firmly beleive there is no such thing as "overtraining" just under eating. Diet is 90% of your results.

This is a cool thread.

I would disagree about your overtraining comment. When people first start out it's not as much overtraining as just general fatigue I think some think they are "overtraining" when the reality is they aren't rested and aren't eating right. They use the pain from soreness as an excuse not to push themselves. People that are dedicated push through the "soreness" type pain

But after a year or two and once you get into some heavier weights 400+ DL 300+ bench 315+ squat some of the weaker links start to take a beating. The recovery time is often longer than what you body tells you and its easy to start overtraining. Basically starting chest day only to discover your shoulder still hurts, starting squats and realizing your knees still tweaked. Those days suck and then you realize all you've done is re-aggravate the weak link. At this point you've overstrained. It can become a tough cycle. This type of pain is really different from the soreness pain, it's bone aches, ligaments, and tendons.

Realizing when you need a break is just as important as diet and regimen

Lift heavy or don't lift!

[DieselAries1]

Originally Posted by Msmall143

This is a cool thread.

I would disagree about your overtraining comment. When people first start out it's not as much overtraining as just general fatigue I think some think they are "overtraining" when the reality is they aren't rested and aren't eating right. They use the pain from soreness as an excuse not to push themselves. People that are dedicated push through the "soreness" type pain

But after a year or two and once you get into some heavier weights 400+ DL 300+ bench 315+ squat some of the weaker links start to take a beating. The recovery time is often longer than what you body tells you and its easy to start overtraining. Basically starting chest day only to discover your shoulder still hurts, starting squats and realizing your knees still tweaked. Those days suck and then you realize all you've done is re-aggravate the weak link. At this point you've overstrained. It can become a tough cycle. This type of pain is really different from the soreness pain, it's bone aches, ligaments, and tendons.

Realizing when you need a break is just as important as diet and regimen

Lift heavy or don't lift!

That fatigue is caused by inadequate nutrition. Pushing thru soreness after is just dumb as there is no benefit to it and hinders further growth, even becomes catabolic. As you point out you "overstrained" not "overtrained". Improper form causes weak links in the first place. I train for 6 months on end day in and day out dieting for shows. I can lose 50lbs in 12-16 weeks on a whim. Not once do I get to the point of over training. I only naturally take time off after as I don't need to put my body under that load. My cycle could be maintained indefinitely.

[CFD]

Originally Posted by DieselAries1

That fatigue is caused by inadequate nutrition. Pushing thru soreness after is just dumb as there is no benefit to it and hinders further growth, even becomes catabolic. As you point out you "overstrained" not "overtrained". Improper form causes weak links in the first place. I train for 6 months on end day in and day out dieting for shows. I can lose 50lbs in 12-16 weeks on a whim. Not once do I get to the point of over training. I only naturally take time off after as I don't need to put my body under that load. My cycle could be maintained indefinitely.

I feel overtraining is definitely a reality, it also depends on one's physical limits. What may not be overtraining for you may be for someone else. Simply put overtraining is when your exercise level is not supported by your recovery. Factors such as inadequate rest or poor nutrition can be the cause or a contributing factor to overtraining but it's still overtraining. It can be argued indefinitely, you could say ones exercise level was to great for his rest periods so he was overtrained, or say his rest periods were not adequate for his exercise level so he was under rested but either way by definition it is overtraining.

[DieselAries1]

Originally Posted by CFD

I feel overtraining is definitely a reality, it also depends on one's physical limits. What may not be overtraining for you may be for someone else. Simply put overtraining is when your exercise level is not supported by your recovery. Factors such as inadequate rest or poor nutrition can be the cause or a contributing factor to overtraining but it's still overtraining. It can be argued indefinitely, you could say ones exercise level was to great for his rest periods so he was overtrained, or say his rest periods were not adequate for his exercise level so he was under rested but either way by definition it is overtraining.

It's simply potatoe potato. Only the uneducated train inappropriately. Done right there is no overtraining. There is no need to be in the gym for more than an hour and a half WITH cardio even. There is no reason one cannot eat a proper meal after training. No such thing as overtraing is realistic for a knowledgable weight lifter. Only a FNG will overtrain. Such as a highschool child. If someone is among those ranks they should start training when they are knowledable.

[CFD]

Originally Posted by DieselAries1

It's simply potatoe potato. Only the uneducated train inappropriately. Done right there is no overtraining. There is no need to be in the gym for more than an hour and a half WITH cardio even. There is no reason one cannot eat a proper meal after training. No such thing as overtraing is realistic for a knowledgable weight lifter. Only a FNG will overtrain. Such as a highschool child. If someone is among those ranks they should start training when they are knowledable.

I agree that to some extent overtraining can be avoided but when people push hard and train to always improve you can exceed your limits. There are numerous studies on overtraining, the causes, the effects and the diagnosing of it, so in fact it is a reality.

[Mydivorcegift]

Originally Posted by CFD

I agree that to some extent overtraining can be avoided but when people push hard and train to always improve you can exceed your limits. There are numerous studies on overtraining, the causes, the effects and the diagnosing of it, so in fact it is a reality.

Who were the test subjects used during these "studies"?

[CFD]

Originally Posted by Mydivorcegift

Who were the test subjects used during these "studies"?

One that comes to mind was conducted on cross country skiers and one on a weight training group. When I'm at my computer later I can direct you to them.

[Msmall143]

Originally Posted by DieselAries1

That fatigue is caused by inadequate nutrition. Pushing thru soreness after is just dumb as there is no benefit to it and hinders further growth, even becomes catabolic. As you point out you "overstrained" not "overtrained". Improper form causes weak links in the first place. I train for 6 months on end day in and day out dieting for shows. I can lose 50lbs in 12-16 weeks on a whim. Not once do I get to the point of over training. I only naturally take time off after as I don't need to put my body under that load. My cycle could be maintained indefinitely.

Congrats on being invensible! You used a lot of "i's". I dont think you'll find many top fitness professionals or coaches that will agree with you that overtraining isn't a reality, and something you need to game plan to avoid. You can become both mentally and physically overtrained. The brain may need a break just like the body.

I didn't point out I overtrained rather than overstrained, if you read back I was not speaking solely of myself how you are. I was referring to what I've seen from first hand experience while being around some serious lifters.

When you lift heavy your form will eventually break, and until it breaks it's hard to know where to spend time and energy to improve. To progress you realize the proper form you work for will eventually have to give.

I think we may have different opinions as to what "heavy" is, cole on the right here pulls 850+ and is nursing a shoulder injury. You may feel its because his "lack of nutrition" or improper form" but I chaulk it up as a result of lifting some heavy ass weight

Be careful who you call uneducated, there is always someone who knows more than you, you never know when you're talking to them

[Mydivorcegift]

I personally agree with most of what msmall143 posted. I think if you are in shape to lift (speaking from a strength aspect) you really don't overtrain. There will be times, when doing a heavy weight, you will overstrain when you have a form breakdown and you will tweak something. But this is an injury, not overtraining. It happened to me all last year :(

[CFD]

Had a doctors appointment today. Although it was not conclusive as to what my problem is. There is obviously something going on and the doctor said the picture is typical of an inguinal hernia but he performed a few routine tests and they showed no evidence of it. He was confused as to how it was not evident in his exam but said sometimes routine exams will not detect them but where mine were so obvious in the photo's he has referred me to a specialist for further examination. As always he again warned me about lifting weights, like I didn't know that was coming.

Any how here is an actual case study on overtraining in weight lifters.

Examination of Weightlifters

Study 2.

The publications by Fry et al. (9, 10) and Fry et al. (8; see Table 2a–

b in the appendix) each present partial aspects of the same study. The authors

examined the effects of overtraining in weightlifters, prevailingly caused by anaerobic

training, on hormonal parameters at rest and load. Moreover, the investigation

was intended to show whether a relationship between changes in the levels of

selected hormones and a decrease in muscular strength can be found. The authors

defined an overtraining whenever a decrease in performance associated with an

increase in the extent of the training and/or the intensity of the training was seen.

Seventeen weightlifters were divided into two groups. Eleven athletes went through

a training at high intensity for 2 weeks, while the second group of 6 athletes served as

controls. The daily training of the first group consisted in 10 sets of 1 run at 100% of

maximum power on a power machine, mainly involving the muscle groups of hip

and knee extensors. The control group did their training once a week at 3 sets of 5

runs at 50% of maximum power.

Performance and hormone examinations were carried out before (I1), during

(I2), and after the training phase (I3). Blood samples were taken from the subjects

during a 30-min resting period at 15 min and immediately prior to exercise. Afterwards,

power endurance at 70% of maximum power was checked. Directly after this

exercise and 5 min later, further blood samples were taken to examine the levels of

catecholamines and further hormones. Other performance tests done were maximum

power tests as well as tests of maximum isometric power and isokinetic power.

After the 2-week investigation, the daily trained group showed a significant

drop in performance in both maximum power and isometric and isokinetic power

tests as compared with the results of the control group. Power endurance remained

unchanged. In the assessment of the authors, the athletes could be called overtrained.

The examinations of blood epinephrine and norepinephrine levels before the

load did not reveal any significant changes in both groups. The comparison of the

levels at rest showed no group difference between the two groups, either. However,

both the load-induced increase in epinephrine and the increase in norepinephrine

showed a significantly higher value in the group of the overtrained athletes at I2 and

I3 as compared with I1, though this led to significantly higher values in the overtrained

weightlifters as compared with the non-overtrained weightlifters only for

norepinephrine in I3. In the group of the non-overtrained athletes, a positive correlation

was found between the increase in isometric power from I2 to I3 and the

increase in epinephrine and norepinephrine under load. The overtrained group showed

a negative correlation between the change in maximum power and the increase in

norepinephrine under load.

4 / Platen

Load-

[CFD]

Here's something else that came across my desk that I thought was interesting especially where as I'm in the category of "older"

January 4, 2014 by Monica Mollica
Can Age-Related Declines in Testosterone Levels be Prevented or Reversed?




It is well-documented that testosterone levels decline with age in men. After the age of 40 years, total T decreases on average -4 ng/dL ( -0.124 nmol/L) per year [1] or 1.6% per year [2], and bioavailable T by -2 to 3% per year. [2] In older men (over 60 years of age), the average decline in total testosterone levels has been found to be 110 ng/dL every decade.[3]
However, the relative contributions of changes in health and lifestyle to that decline have not been adequately evaluated. A notable study was set out to investigate this…
OBJECTIVE:
The objective of this study was to establish the relative importance of aging, health, and lifestyle in contributing to the testosterone decline in aging men.[4]
DESIGN:
A prospective cohort study of health and endocrine functioning in randomly selected men with a baseline visit (T1, 1987-1989) and two follow-up visits (T2, 1995-1997; T3, 2002-2004) was conducted.
SETTING:
An observational study of men residing in greater Boston, Massachusetts, was conducted.
PARTICIPANTS:
Participants included 1667 men aged 40 – 70 at baseline; follow-up was conducted on 947 (57%) and 584 (35%) at T2 and T3, respectively.
RESULTS:
There were substantial declines in total serum T and FT levels associated with aging alone. However, many health and lifestyle changes were associated with accelerated decline.
When not taking health status into consideration, declines of -14.5% (range -16.3% to -12.6%) in total T and -27.0% (range -29.1% to -5.0%) free T per decade of aging.
The corresponding estimated trends including only subjects who were apparently healthy were less sharp; among such subjects, declines of -10.5% (range -14.0% to -7.0%) in total testosterone and -22.8% (range -26.9% to -18.7%) in free testosterone per decade of aging.
A 4- 5 kg/m2 increase in body mass index (BMI), for example a man 5’8 (1.75 m) gaining weight from 176 lb (80kg, BMI 26) to 202 lb (92 kg, BMI 30), was associated with a decline in total testosterone level comparable to that associated with approximately 10 years of aging.
Comments
This study[4], and many others [5-8], show that both chronological aging and changes in health and lifestyle factors are associated with declines in serum T. Co-morbidities and lifestyle influences may be as strongly associated with declining testosterone levels as is aging itself.
Another study confirmed these finding by showing that the effect of increasing body fat and waist size on lowering testosterone levels is more substantial, compared with that of age. [5] This later study also demonstrated that body fat/waist size is the most important determinant of the differences seen in total testosterone levels [5], regardless of age. [9] Accumulating research data underscores the major impact of body fat/waist size in determining testosterone levels.[10]
The sharper decline in both testosterone levels in people with poor health, among whom obesity, metabolic syndrome, diabetes and cardiovascular disease is common, indicates that a substantial proportion of the apparent aging effect is attributable to changes in health status. Thus, the age-related testosterone decline can be partially prevented and/or slowed down by adherence to a healthy lifestyle incorporating a sound diet and regular exercise.
References:
1. Harman, S.M., et al., Longitudinal effects of aging on serum total and free testosterone levels in healthy men. Baltimore Longitudinal Study of Aging. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2001. 86(2): p. 724-31.
2. Feldman, H.A., et al., Age trends in the level of serum testosterone and other hormones in middle-aged men: longitudinal results from the Massachusetts male aging study. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2002. 87(2): p. 589-98.
3. Morley, J.E., et al., Longitudinal changes in testosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in healthy older men. Metabolism, 1997. 46(4): p. 410-3.
4. Travison, T.G., et al., The relative contributions of aging, health, and lifestyle factors to serum testosterone decline in men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2007. 92(2): p. 549-55.
5. Wu, F.C., et al., Hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis disruptions in older men are differentially linked to age and modifiable risk factors: the European Male Aging Study. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2008. 93(7): p. 2737-45.
6. Yeap, B.B., et al., Healthier lifestyle predicts higher circulating testosterone in older men: the Health In Men Study. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf), 2009. 70(3): p. 455-63.
7. Camacho, E.M., et al., Age-associated changes in hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular function in middle-aged and older men are modified by weight change and lifestyle factors: longitudinal results from the European Male Ageing Study. Eur J Endocrinol, 2013. 168(3): p. 445-55.
8. Haring, R., et al., Clinical correlates of sex steroids and gonadotropins in men over the late adulthood: the Framingham Heart Study. Int J Androl, 2012. 35(6): p. 775-82.
9. Goncharov, N.P., et al., Testosterone and obesity in men under the age of 40 years. Andrologia, 2009. 41(2): p. 76-83.
10. Corona, G., et al., Body weight loss reverts obesity-associated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Eur J Endocrinol, 2013. 168(6): p. 829-43.
About Monica Mollica


Monica Mollica holds a Master Degree in Nutrition from the University of Stockholm and Karolinska Institue, Sweden. She has also done PhD level course

[Mydivorcegift]

Originally Posted by CFD

Had a doctors appointment today. Although it was not conclusive as to what my problem is. There is obviously something going on and the doctor said the picture is typical of an inguinal hernia but he performed a few routine tests and they showed no evidence of it. He was confused as to how it was not evident in his exam but said sometimes routine exams will not detect them but where mine were so obvious in the photo's he has referred me to a specialist for further examination. As always he again warned me about lifting weights, like I didn't know that was coming.

Any how here is an actual case study on overtraining in weight lifters.

Examination of Weightlifters

Study 2.

The publications by Fry et al. (9, 10) and Fry et al. (8; see Table 2a–

b in the appendix) each present partial aspects of the same study. The authors

examined the effects of overtraining in weightlifters, prevailingly caused by anaerobic

training, on hormonal parameters at rest and load. Moreover, the investigation

was intended to show whether a relationship between changes in the levels of

selected hormones and a decrease in muscular strength can be found. The authors

defined an overtraining whenever a decrease in performance associated with an

increase in the extent of the training and/or the intensity of the training was seen.

Seventeen weightlifters were divided into two groups. Eleven athletes went through

a training at high intensity for 2 weeks, while the second group of 6 athletes served as

controls. The daily training of the first group consisted in 10 sets of 1 run at 100% of

maximum power on a power machine, mainly involving the muscle groups of hip

and knee extensors. The control group did their training once a week at 3 sets of 5

runs at 50% of maximum power.

Performance and hormone examinations were carried out before (I1), during

(I2), and after the training phase (I3). Blood samples were taken from the subjects

during a 30-min resting period at 15 min and immediately prior to exercise. Afterwards,

power endurance at 70% of maximum power was checked. Directly after this

exercise and 5 min later, further blood samples were taken to examine the levels of

catecholamines and further hormones. Other performance tests done were maximum

power tests as well as tests of maximum isometric power and isokinetic power.

After the 2-week investigation, the daily trained group showed a significant

drop in performance in both maximum power and isometric and isokinetic power

tests as compared with the results of the control group. Power endurance remained

unchanged. In the assessment of the authors, the athletes could be called overtrained.

The examinations of blood epinephrine and norepinephrine levels before the

load did not reveal any significant changes in both groups. The comparison of the

levels at rest showed no group difference between the two groups, either. However,

both the load-induced increase in epinephrine and the increase in norepinephrine

showed a significantly higher value in the group of the overtrained athletes at I2 and

I3 as compared with I1, though this led to significantly higher values in the overtrained

weightlifters as compared with the non-overtrained weightlifters only for

norepinephrine in I3. In the group of the non-overtrained athletes, a positive correlation

was found between the increase in isometric power from I2 to I3 and the

increase in epinephrine and norepinephrine under load. The overtrained group showed

a negative correlation between the change in maximum power and the increase in

norepinephrine under load.

4 / Platen

Load-

Yeah have to say I am not really a fan of doctors. Most don't advocate a healthy life and had rather write you a scrip for it.....When are you going to the specialist? Tomorrow?

Also not a fan of "case studies" or "research has shown" for the reasons like what is published above. So first you don't know who or what level of fitness these "weightlifters" were. Second the case study is a whopping 2 weeks. 3rd you have weightlifters perform "runs on a power machine". Give me a f'n break.

WSB lifters max every week and train no less than 10 times a week with a lot of these workouts focusing on addressing weaknesses and they don't overtrain. I think I prefer believing this "case study" vs the one you published because this one has been going on for over 20 years, is proven on all lifters of all strength levels (best example being Dave Hoff who came to WSB 8 or 9 years ago as a 15 year old and now has the highest total ever in PL'ing), and is drawn from mostly the strongest people walking the face of the earth (speaking from a PL'ing standpoint).