2014 Camaro Z/28 pricing announced at $75,000

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Just stating my opinions, which indeed differ from most, but not all.
Unfortunately, minority get swarmed and then swamped on this forum.
Ignore my posts and read Pete's post in the Ring thread instead. Apparently he carries much weight and consideration on this forum. And if it takes a record posts for Pete to express his opinion, I am glad that I had persevered as what he states regarding tires and power matches my thoughts exactly.

.....gotcha Chance, however I was commenting on this feller....as to my last post.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I read what Pete said a "little" differently. The Wheels/tires contribute greatly due to numerous things; lower CG, lighter weight (++unsprung), square design, tire sidewall stiffer, (not just) treadwear rating...

The other changes (aero, diff, gearing, brakes, shocks, weight loss...) will experience greater value by upping the HP & TQ.

^...see my post above....yawn....LOL...

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

.....gotcha Chance, however I was commenting on this feller....as to my last post.

Yes I was expanding on your comments. Not towards you.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Yes I was expanding on your comments. Not towards you.

.....my bad....<I hate that saying>

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

.....my bad....<I hate that saying>

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

And lest we forget: thanks to the Z/28, a ZL1 can now be driven off a GM dealer lot with Recaro seats and Z/28 rims/rubber

Originally Posted by TrackClub

No, fully GM OEM. If a Z/28 guy/gal damages a rim they buy a replacement wheel at a GM dealer and that's still considered OEM - isn't it? It is GM, so, OEM and not BBS, CCW or another aftermarket firm.

If you can't check it off on the order form, it isn't OE for your specific trim even if it is OE on another.

You can probably pass some of the "picker of nits" designation on through to Chevy if it matters any.

Perhaps the definition of "stock" that the SCCA has used for years applies here. It's intended to create a level playing field for competition where people are inclined to want to use "interpretations" in any possible sense favorable to them, so it ought to be good enough to clear up the discussion here.

Originally Posted by excerpts from SCCA Solo Rules, Stock Category

Originally Posted by excerpts from SCCA Solo Rules, Stock Category

. . . series produced with normal road touring equipment capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through the manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the United States.

<snip>

Except for modifications authorized below, Stock Category cars must be run as specified by the factory with only standard equipment as defined by these Rules. This requirement refers not just to individual parts, but to combinations thereof which would have been ordered together on a specific car.

SCCA's stock category allows wheels to be changed, but their width(s) must remain the same as stock for the model in question. Z/28 wheels on a ZL1 would not meet this requirement.

Just to add a pertinent and entirely true story - about six years ago I wanted to get my car built with the wheels and tires from that year's GT500 - an inch wider on the wheels. Our salesman said he couldn't do that, so I went to his boss who wouldn't budge either. As it happened, that dealership could also source Ford Racing parts, including FRPP's GT500 wheels, and I could have made it happen that way but I still wouldn't really have had a fully stock GT. It's no different at a Chevy dealership for Z/28 parts on a ZL1 now than it was for me at Ford for GT500 parts on a GT back then.

.

.

You guys stay up way too late for me, and this site is randomly refusing to recognize blank lines for the purpose of separating different thoughts. Grrrr.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

If you can't check it off on the order form, it isn't OE for your specific trim even if it is OE on another.

You can probably pass some of the "picker of nits" designation on through to Chevy if it matters any.

Perhaps the definition of "stock" that the SCCA has used for years applies here. It's intended to create a level playing field for competition where people are inclined to want to use "interpretations" in any possible sense favorable to them, so it ought to be good enough to clear up the discussion here.

SCCA's stock category allows wheels to be changed, but their width(s) must remain the same as stock for the model in question. Z/28 wheels on a ZL1 would not meet this requirement.

Just to add a pertinent and entirely true story - about six years ago I wanted to get my car built with the wheels and tires from that year's GT500 - an inch wider on the wheels. Our salesman said he couldn't do that, so I went to his boss who wouldn't budge either. As it happened, that dealership could also source Ford Racing parts, including FRPP's GT500 wheels, and I could have made it happen that way but I still wouldn't really have had a fully stock GT. It's no different at a Chevy dealership for Z/28 parts on a ZL1 now than it was for me at Ford for GT500 parts on a GT back then.

.

.

You guys stay up way too late for me, and this site is randomly refusing to recognize blank lines for the purpose of separating different thoughts. Grrrr.


Norm

Thanks for posting these constructive thoughts Norm. You may have indeed kiboshed my OEM/stock argument if SCCAs' definition of a "model" (vs "group") applies separately to each of the cars in question. But if the "model" means Camaro, then one could use any OEM wheels available for this model across its model groups. I am not fluent with SCCA rules, so this is more of a question vs a statement. Regardless of the wheels, how about applying SCCA tire rules as this is a track performance comparo. Seems to me, at the very least, ZL1 would be permitted to use the same category tires as a car it was "competing" with. Am I correct in this assumption?

[Norm Peterson]

This sentence . . .

This requirement refers not just to individual parts, but to combinations thereof which would have been ordered together on a specific car.

ties the restriction to what a single car could have been ordered with. Since a car cannot be two different trims you don't get to mix and match.

BUT . . . the SCCA Solo rules do go on to allow you to convert one trim to another - provided that you make every single change between the car you have and the car you want to use something from. IOW, you'd have to make it an exact clone.

That would mean to install Z/28 wheels and tires on a ZL1 you'd have to swap the powertrain, lose all of the "features" that are unavailable on the Z/28, swap the MRC to Multimatics, install thin rear glass, etc., etc. A protest might even be upheld if you didn't strip out all of the now-excess ZL1 wiring.

Up until this year, tires in stock category only had to be "DOT-approved", meaning that everybody who was anybody ran R-comps. But this is changing with the introduction of the "street" category, where minimum treadwear is 140 this year and goes up to 200 in another year. That already puts the Trofeos off the table for the minimum-preparation category (i.e. closest to production line stock, which is what we're assuming here for doing only a ZL1 wheel/tire upgrade to Z/28 spec).


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This sentence . . .


ties the restriction to what a single car could have been ordered with. Since a car cannot be two different trims you don't get to mix and match.

BUT . . . the SCCA Solo rules do go on to allow you to convert one trim to another - provided that you make every single change between the car you have and the car you want to use something from. IOW, you'd have to make it an exact clone.

That would mean to install Z/28 wheels and tires on a ZL1 you'd have to swap the powertrain, lose all of the "features" that are unavailable on the Z/28, swap the MRC to Multimatics, install thin rear glass, etc., etc. A protest might even be upheld if you didn't strip out all of the now-excess ZL1 wiring.

Up until this year, tires in stock category only had to be "DOT-approved", meaning that everybody who was anybody ran R-comps. But this is changing with the introduction of the "street" category, where minimum treadwear is 140 this year and goes up to 200 in another year. That already puts the Trofeos off the table for the minimum-preparation category (i.e. closest to production line stock, which is what we're assuming here for doing only a ZL1 wheel/tire upgrade to Z/28 spec).


Norm

Just to clarify: a car as in a model or a group within a model? Still unclear about what SCCA means by a "model" as if Camaro was one than I think it would be permitted to pick and choose OEM components for that model and apply them to a specific group?
Regarding the new tire rules, are they the same for both Solo and SoloII?
I've read about it wrt autocross, but not road racing. How would one apply SCCA rules to have a Z/28 compete with a ZL1? Is that even possible?

[Norm Peterson]

Think in terms of each trim being separate (sub-models?) even though they are all under the Camaro "umbrella" (so to speak). Even though everything probably fits without modification, you still can't pick and choose across trims unless you make the entire change-over.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Think in terms of each trim being separate (sub-models?) even though they are all under the Camaro "umbrella" (so to speak). Even though everything probably fits without modification, you still can't pick and choose across trims unless you make the entire change-over.


Norm

Ok, so any idea how those 2 would square off under SCCA rules? Could they share a class on the same tires, or would they be classified to different classes and PAXed?

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Ok, so any idea how those 2 would square off under SCCA rules? Could they share a class on the same tires, or would they be classified to different classes and PAXed?

http://www.scca.com/

Perhaps you'd care to share what you find out, from them, here...

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

http://www.scca.com/

Perhaps you'd care to share what you find out, from them, here...

Thanks for the offer, but how about somebody that's "an old hand" here takes this privileage instead? I am sure at least a few should have a correct answer at the tip of their tongue given they have first hand SCCA experience (I don't).

[2cnd chance]

I'm not sure anyone else here really cares to see how they "square off". The Z/28 long-timers here all believe in the Z/28 as the "true" track design. We lobbied and waited for this car before it was even whispered about. As we continued our discussion we didn't believe the ZL1 to be the complete answer. So we waited, discussed and waited some more. We finally received more than we asked for. Personally I'd go for the 1LE over the ZL1 and add what Z/28 parts I could. But if you prefer the ZL1 there is a section for that.