What's with all the automatic hate?

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

There shouldn't be any 'shame' involved, but I suspect that - right or wrong - there's still an implied association with the word "can't" lurking in the background.



I know that was true of drivers from my parents' generation and mine (at least for us 'older' boomers). But past that I'd only be guessing - my own two kids have both owned automatics but still drive stick, but I only know of one nephew who has owned a manual transmission car. Yes, that's a pretty small sample size, but I'd be surprised if it was horribly non-representative of drivers younger than roughly 40.

Could the rest of them drive a MT given the opportunity and a little practice? Almost certainly, but that's a slightly different question.


Norm

My kids are part of this next gen. And It's my fault to a great extent. Neither of them can drive a stick that I know of.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Only one fact of several. You do realize that there is a difference between a paddle-shifted automatic and a dual-clutch sequential manual transmission, even though the driver's physical inputs are much the same for both?

Yes, the quicker shifting does matter in racing where only a few milleseconds here and a few more there can make the difference. But in street driving - other than street racing anyway - fractions of a second shaved off your commute or those trips to the Starbucks are irrelevant, and the only "benefit" is the snob appeal of being able to boast "I have some of the latest racing technology in my car and you don't".



I doubt that anybody considers paddle shifting to be on the same level as fully automatic AT operation. Not too many really equate it with fully manual transmission operation either, so it still comes back to being an approximation.


Norm

I think it is funny so many people on this thread bring up Ferrari and talk about their transmissions like they are the same as the auto in the ZL1. I got to drive a Ferrari 430GT race car last year and the only thing that transmission had in common with the ZL1 auto was the paddles. In the race car, there is NO auto shift function, it does not shift until you pull a paddle. And the actual transmission is a manual type dual clutch gearbox. Yes it has an automated clutch, not a torque converter. And I will repeat, there is nothing automatic about the decision to shift. The gears only change with driver input period. This is not even close to what you find in any GM product. If you want to talk about Ferrari transmissions, they still use a clutch, the actual mechanical breakdown of a Ferrari transmission is much more like a GM manual than a GM auto. I think the ZL1 auto is a pretty good slushbox but when you try to compare it to the prancing horse transmissions you are actually talking about a transmission with a clutch, which from GM is only available as a fully manual gearbox.

[BigBoyBlue]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I think it is funny so many people on this thread bring up Ferrari and talk about their transmissions like they are the same as the auto in the ZL1. I got to drive a Ferrari 430GT race car last year and the only thing that transmission had in common with the ZL1 auto was the paddles. In the race car, there is NO auto shift function, it does not shift until you pull a paddle. And the actual transmission is a manual type dual clutch gearbox. Yes it has an automated clutch, not a torque converter. And I will repeat, there is nothing automatic about the decision to shift. The gears only change with driver input period. This is not even close to what you find in any GM product. If you want to talk about Ferrari transmissions, they still use a clutch, the actual mechanical breakdown of a Ferrari transmission is much more like a GM manual than a GM auto. I think the ZL1 auto is a pretty good slushbox but when you try to compare it to the prancing horse transmissions you are actually talking about a transmission with a clutch, which from GM is only available as a fully manual gearbox.

Amen!

It's also disconcerting that so many people like to drink their coffee while driving a 580hp race car. Not much different than talking on the phone. Two hands, guys!!! You can have your coffee when you get to your destination. My children and all the children in cars on the road deserve all drivers paying 100% attention. Now I'm done preaching.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by BigBoyBlue

Amen!

It's also disconcerting that so many people like to drink their coffee while driving a 580hp race car. Not much different than talking on the phone. Two hands, guys!!! You can have your coffee when you get to your destination. My children and all the children in cars on the road deserve all drivers paying 100% attention. Now I'm done preaching.

It is still a car that has 580hp available, I will drink my coffee. If you had to have both hands on at all times the manual guys would never get out of first gear.

[LuckyZL-1]

Originally Posted by BigBoyBlue

Amen!

It's also disconcerting that so many people like to drink their coffee while driving a 580hp race car. Not much different than talking on the phone. Two hands, guys!!! You can have your coffee when you get to your destination. My children and all the children in cars on the road deserve all drivers paying 100% attention. Now I'm done preaching.

I drink my coffee in a M6 and have alot more than 580horses. I understand ur concern but while I'm drinking my coffee I only use a few of them. I'm more dangerous on the road without my coffee because I'll be grumpy and I don't have a cup of coffee to interfere with my studly shifting!! LOL

[BigBoyBlue]

Originally Posted by Sven59

It is still a car that has 580hp available, I will drink my coffee. If you had to have both hands on at all times the manual guys would never get out of first gear.

When shifting, a driver is totally concentrating on the machine and the act of driving. When sipping coffee, the driver is half thinking of not spilling it, drinking it, as well as potentially blocking part of their field of vision. Ask the Germans why they never wanted to include cup holders in their cars, until American consumers pressured them into including them.

If you don't see the difference, I won't waste my time.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by BigBoyBlue

When shifting, a driver is totally concentrating on the machine and the act of driving. When sipping coffee, the driver is half thinking of not spilling it, drinking it, as well as potentially blocking part of their field of vision. Ask the Germans why they never wanted to include cup holders in their cars, until American consumers pressured them into including them.

If you don't see the difference, I won't waste my time.

Over the years through a lot of practice I have learned to find my cup raise it to my lips drink and put it back without looking. However, I still have to look to adjust the mylink, A/C etc. If you are driving your 580hp race car on the streets like a race car I could see an issue, otherwise it is still a car. Look

[PQ]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I think it is funny so many people on this thread bring up Ferrari and talk about their transmissions like they are the same as the auto in the ZL1. I got to drive a Ferrari 430GT race car last year and the only thing that transmission had in common with the ZL1 auto was the paddles. In the race car, there is NO auto shift function, it does not shift until you pull a paddle. And the actual transmission is a manual type dual clutch gearbox. Yes it has an automated clutch, not a torque converter. And I will repeat, there is nothing automatic about the decision to shift. The gears only change with driver input period. This is not even close to what you find in any GM product. If you want to talk about Ferrari transmissions, they still use a clutch, the actual mechanical breakdown of a Ferrari transmission is much more like a GM manual than a GM auto. I think the ZL1 auto is a pretty good slushbox but when you try to compare it to the prancing horse transmissions you are actually talking about a transmission with a clutch, which from GM is only available as a fully manual gearbox.

I dont' follow the first part. I get the mechanical part, but in my car the tranny will NOT shift if I don't push the shift button on the shifter. (when in the 'manual' mode)

I guess what you are saying is the Ferrari does not have a auto mode at all. Not even an option. In which I do understand.

But when in manual mode on the 6L80E it will not shift if you don't hit that botton. and the rev limiter does not make you feel any better if you forget to shift.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by PQ

I dont' follow the first part. I get the mechanical part, but in my car the tranny will NOT shift if I don't push the shift button on the shifter. (when in the 'manual' mode)

I guess what you are saying is the Ferrari does not have a auto mode at all. Not even an option. In which I do understand.

But when in manual mode on the 6L80E it will not shift if you don't hit that botton. and the rev limiter does not make you feel any better if you forget to shift.

I can tell from your posts that you happen to be one of the auto guys that uses the paddle shifters when you want to really drive the car. If you want to do that you are manually shifting an auto transmission. Believe it or not, many people that drive automatic transmission cars never touch those paddle at all. They may have tried it once when they bought the car then they put it in drive. I have seen video of "fast" quarter mile passes where the driver puts the car in drive and when the light turns green they stand on the throttle and other than minor steering inputs do absolutely nothing except holding the pedal to the floor.

I don't know how old you are but in the total automotive history putting a paddle shifter on a automatic transmission is a relatively new concept. Yes, back in the day, you could take your shift lever on the column and move it from 1 to 2 and then to D if you wanted to shift your auto but it had no advantage in the performance effect. The paddles first appeared on sequential manual gearboxes in race cars and the engineers have since brought them into cars with torque converters. As a matter of fact I recently drove a Nissisn that had a CVT transmission and it had paddles (what a joke). The paddles have been added to modern automatic transmissions because performance drivers have always known that no computer software is as smart as a real human that knows how to drive. I admit that they have made a mechanically inefficient transmission much more enjoyable to drive in performance environments. So if you do this, you like to manually shift your auto.... And remind me again how this is so superior to pressing a clutch pedal and getting 30+ more horsepower to your tires?

The Ferrari race car, has no automatic shift function at all, I guess some would still call it automatic but there is nothing automatic about the shift at all. I'm told the street cars do have a choice where you can allow the car to make a shift. You would expect that in a car that cost $1/4 mill+. My point is the only thing automatic in the Ferrari performance transmission is the clutch and it is a little off base to say your ZL1 auto trans with no clutch is better than the manual because the best cars in the world (Ferrari) are using an automated clutch transmission.

[BigBoyBlue]

Originally Posted by Sven59

Over the years through a lot of practice I have learned to find my cup raise it to my lips drink and put it back without looking. However, I still have to look to adjust the mylink, A/C etc. If you are driving your 580hp race car on the streets like a race car I could see an issue, otherwise it is still a car. Look

I get just as pissed at the soccer mom's in their SUVs drinking coffee, eating, or putting on makeup. Funny how you notice all of this stuff when you have a child.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I can tell from your posts that you happen to be one of the auto guys that uses the paddle shifters when you want to really drive the car. If you want to do that you are manually shifting an auto transmission. Believe it or not, many people that drive automatic transmission cars never touch those paddle at all. They may have tried it once when they bought the car then they put it in drive. I have seen video of "fast" quarter mile passes where the driver puts the car in drive and when the light turns green they stand on the throttle and other than minor steering inputs do absolutely nothing except holding the pedal to the floor.

I don't know how old you are but in the total automotive history putting a paddle shifter on a automatic transmission is a relatively new concept. Yes, back in the day, you could take your shift lever on the column and move it from 1 to 2 and then to D if you wanted to shift your auto but it had no advantage in the performance effect. The paddles first appeared on sequential manual gearboxes in race cars and the engineers have since brought them into cars with torque converters. As a matter of fact I recently drove a Nissisn that had a CVT transmission and it had paddles (what a joke). The paddles have been added to modern automatic transmissions because performance drivers have always known that no computer software is as smart as a real human that knows how to drive. I admit that they have made a mechanically inefficient transmission much more enjoyable to drive in performance environments. So if you do this, you like to manually shift your auto.... And remind me again how this is so superior to pressing a clutch pedal and getting 30+ more horsepower to your tires?

The Ferrari race car, has no automatic shift function at all, I guess some would still call it automatic but there is nothing automatic about the shift at all. I'm told the street cars do. You would expect that in a car that cost $1/4 mill+. My point is the only thing automatic in the Ferrari performance transmission is the clutch and it is a little off base to say your ZL1 auto trans with no clutch is better than the manual because the best cars in the world (Ferrari) are using an automated clutch transmission.

I am 43 YO. I have driven everything from 18 wheelers for ten years to manual tannies old and new to the autos that I drive now. I have never driven a regular passenger vehicle with no syncros or blended gearing but the trucks obviously did not have them.

The paddle shifters in the autos are not much more than a novelty. They are actually useful if you have advance knowledge of your need to be in an optimized gear. For example, you see that Mustang coming up behind you on the interstate and want to be ready in case he wants to play all of a sudden. haha So you have control over the gear you are cruising in but you still have a lag for wanting to drop a few right away if needed. But there is a lag when pushing it.

Performance driving in a road course and espec. an auto-X will still be MUCH better with a ture manual tranny. Drag strip will be better with an auto. TIME WISE and consistency. But it will ALWAYS be funner to shift the gears. And while the autos are catching up time wise even on the twisty events I think right now still faster by a well driven manual.

But it's ALL easier than it used to be with technology advancing. Even the manuals. We ALL have taken advantage of technology. It's really not as simple as manual vs auto. There is much more to it than that imo.

I like using the paddles when I drive but if I'm sitting back with a full cup of open coffee I'll let the car do ALL of the work.

As far as it being superior to the extra 30+ hp I'd say at that point it is not. So I just add a few hundred extra hp and enjoy.

But superior is relative. Superior in the quarter mile speed wise. Yes. Fun wise. No. Superior in an auto-X event. No.

Everything is relative. Some like the challenge of their best 1320 with a manual over auto. Some think an auto is just useless. (I don't get this one because if it were then nobody would buy them) I'd say there are different trains of thought. A shitty driver in a manual transmission with 700 whp will beat a good driver in a auto transmission with only 350 whp all other factors equal. THe guy in the auto can use the excuse that he has twice the power. Point being all things are NEVER equal. So it comes down to what the preference is. Most auto guys don't care to prove anything to themselves or others. It's not a challenge but something that is just fun to participate in. Manual guy seems to want to have the fun but also likes a challenge of skill and not mechanics.

Me, I like the challenge of doing all of my own mechanical mods and making my car faster. It's more of a technical thing for me than a skillset driving. I can drive a manual as good a most. Not great as far as racing because I've never done it.

[LuckyZL-1]

Originally Posted by BigBoyBlue

I get just as pissed at the soccer mom's in their SUVs drinking coffee, eating, or putting on makeup. Funny how you notice all of this stuff when you have a child.

Well I don't have a child. I have children and they don't ride in my car or the wifes BMW Vert. They ride in my bigass KingRanch 3/4 ton or the wifes SUV. But yes I drink coffee and drive my ZL-1 and believe me I don't want to wreck my car but I'm gonna have my coffee for dang sure! I drink 7/11 coffee without a lid!! Why? Because I'm a professional coffee drinker that's why! Don't try that at home kids! The soccer moms may piss you off but if you just have 1 kid you don't know what they are going thru and believe me its tough work getting kids ready and yourself and then making it to work. I know cuz ive filled in for the wife before and its a bitch!! My advice to you is drive defensively cuz that's just where society is right now and there isn't a dang thing you can do about it!!!

[ZL1-V]

Originally Posted by BigBoyBlue

When shifting, a driver is totally concentrating on the machine and the act of driving. When sipping coffee, the driver is half thinking of not spilling it, drinking it, as well as potentially blocking part of their field of vision. Ask the Germans why they never wanted to include cup holders in their cars, until American consumers pressured them into including them.

If you don't see the difference, I won't waste my time.

You are assuming that "drinking coffee is the main problem. Wake up please it's inattention at the wheel. New devices such as cell phones and now all the other infotainment BS in the cars now with touchscreens. We don't live in Germany or have roads like Germany so that makes not a bit of a difference regarding drivers here in the United States. It's way tougher to get your license in Europe than here! One hand or two hands does it make a difference when you're sliding off of the road? I'm pretty sure you aren't the only parent that has had his children in the car. Wait until you are helping them learn to drive and procure their drivers license, then you'll have reason to be nervous!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by PQ

My kids are part of this next gen. And It's my fault to a great extent. Neither of them can drive a stick that I know of.

My oldest granddaughter is at the stage where she is driving on her permit. All my son and I can do is offer her the opportunity for practicing this skill, using one or the other of my older cars. If she had more time for more practice I'm sure she'd get pretty good at it. That she appears to be as interested in learning this as squeezing in much practice driving between school, SAT preparation classes, and whatever else 16 y/o's do these days is a good sign. The youngest granddaughter now rides nearly all the time in stick-shift cars since out daughter bought a manual transmission Dart, so there's some hope simply from exposure there.


Norm