Apparently my "Track ready" 1LE has a weekness...me?

[CrystalRedTintcoat]

Originally Posted by STI_TO_SS?

[QUOTEI was taught that short, hard stabs on the brakes are easier on them than long presses.

I agree short hard stabs work great on the street if you are in panic mode and stopping is priority one. A series of jabs also worked well before we had ABS. But physics bites us if we replace one gentle effective press with a series of jabs. Each jab will elicit the following: nose dive, rear lift, and then the opposite as you lift off the brake: nose attempts to return to normal elevation but overshoots then finally stabilizes, and the rear goes back down. A better strategy might be one efficient quick press and then easing out of it. Press so that the nose don't dive and then release so that the nose don't lift. There is a reward: you take advantage of the normal resonance of the car and you can execute your next step, what ever it is, faster. If you don't have to wait for recovery periods after every brake zone your times should improve.

I was following your logic until you wrote, "Press so that the nose don't dive and then release so that the nose don't lift." I've had two separate private instructors say that you WANT the nose to dive to loosen the slip in the rear so you can have a lighter tail around corner before accelerating through the apex.

Cornerspeed and Dropspeed, you are both instructors. What's your take?

[PYROLYSIS]

Originally Posted by Firefighter

Try the ZL1 upgrade?

As for burning up the brakes on the fire truck! Dude use that retarder... lol

Ha. I leave the jake brake on even in the rain. It's a weak jake brake but every bit helps on that truck. A big rescue pumper on a single axle with a 1000 gallon tank. In that instance a car pulled in front of me to make me brake hard. Only hit them hard once, but that's all it took.

[Broke Pilot]

They don't make big nasty vented race brakes to make slow dragging stops and corner entry slow downs... I was always taught go fast, stop faster into a corner. Weight transfer is traction and helps the rear end rotate especially on hard corners.
In saying that, you will push if you do lot have the suspension/traction to accommodate, but the 1LE isn't lacking in either area.
Now to STI to SS, you make a great point about keeping the car smooth and not fighting the recovery of the car to massive inputs, and the brakes should be applied hard, but smooth on and off. That will deny the car of any 'weird' motions it shouldn't be making. Jabbing the brakes, no, but a steady hard fast application yes...
Look at dirt track drivers, you'll see lots on nose diving in corners under hard braking to transfer weight because the whole purpose is to get the rear to rotate and keep the front end planted (on corner entry, then everything else goes out the window)
Corner speed... I really enjoyed watching your video! It may be time to order a set of CTS-v front calipers and rotors lol... They would look soooo much better on your 1LE than a Cadillac!

[STI_TO_SS?]

brake hard into the turn and that you want a little bit of a "nose dive", shifts the weight of the car onto the front wheels and

Yes, that is the idea. The weight shift is good, you do want the weight shift so the front tires Will bite better and turn better. In achieving this state, you have some judgement calls to make. Will a simple gradual lift off the throttle do it? Or, will you need substantial harsh braking. If so, how do you get your harsh braking done, and get the nose down or level, with out taking on the penalty of unnecessary recovery time?

A single sustained fast jab will always work, (will slow the car, will get the nose down, (and is easy for the driving instructor to implement starting out.....))no doubt about it. This is the brute force method. Beyond that, you have the option for fine tuning. A simple analogy: Do we cut our steaks with axes or steak knives?

[STI_TO_SS?]

really enjoyed watching your video

I believe some of the best driving instruction actually happens off the track, when you can talk to others and slow things down in your mind, like we are doing here. It is really hard to talk about some of these fine points while helmeted in loud cars at speed.

I have to confess I have not looked at the video above yet due to my extreme mechanical empathy and fear of seeing glowing rotors. I am still working up my nerve. I do recall viewing some of the OP's other videos and it is a pleasure to watch him drive.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cornerspeed92

This is a "Track ready"car and i cant imagine GM/Brembo not working the brakes as hard as i did.Although this was just a track day and NOT a race,the racer in me,well, im in character,on a race track,and the point is to go faster then the last lap,lap after lap,after lap.Im not knocking this car,i love it!!!!! Im thinking though, i might need to take it down a notch.

I can't imagine they wouldn't have, either, but then somebody gets to decide whether retaining that much capability is warranted for the purely street-driven examples of that car.

#1 - pad compound. Street cars don't get race pads for reasons involving poor bite when cold, and significantly dustier, noisier, and harsher on rotor faces. Hawk's HP+ is really a sort-of-streetable entry-level track pad that may still not be enough for you; Hawk's better stuff starts with HT or DTC designations. In Carbotech, XP10 or higher.

#2 - additional cooling. I don't see any ducting. You need this.

#3 - I suspect that some here may be unaware of your two wheel track experience.


Off-topic and out of curiosity, did you happen to notice a blue Mustang (2013?) running the number 710 in painter's tape? A guy from one of the Mustang forms I belong to was making his "big track" debut, after about 20 years autocrossing (IOW, he's not a 20-something).


Norm

[STI_TO_SS?]

I was following your logic until you wrote, "Press so that the nose don't dive and then release so that the nose don't lift." I've had two separate private instructors say that you WANT the nose to dive to loosen the slip in the rear so you can have a lighter tail around corner before accelerating through the apex.

Weight shift is desired for just the reasons you point out. But I would question if you really need the nose dive so much. Dive is what i call the suspension compression and loading which then requires time to unload and come to normal before turnng, otherwise you get a popup after you have started turning and if abrupt, is not good. Weight shift is very good, dive is not all that good because it comes with a recovery (wait time) penalty. The good news: you can get the shift without the dive. Dive is optional.

Both will work though.

[STI_TO_SS?]

Track ready"car and i cant imagine GM/Brembo not working the brakes as hard as i did.Although

And

#3 - I suspect that some here may be unaware of your two wheel track experience.

I apologize for thread jacking. I have some familiarity from casual browsing. My motivation is watching how well the car is suited to someone precisely like the OP. my inputs are mainly for the newbies who are in the process of being introduced to road course driving and may be viewing, and may plan to visit tracks. I mean no harm. The op needs no advice from me it is clear. I also watch/read to learn, I am not a racer, just a d.e. junkie (17 years).

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by STI_TO_SS?

Instead of taking it down a notch (giving up speed) you might try a slightly different driving style. I understand the overwhelming urge to apply brakes at the last possible millisecond in order to extend maximum velocity, however....you might find there is an alternate approach which works very well. You may have noticed sudden maximum brake inputs result in an equally dramatic reaction from the car (recall for every action, there is a reaction) in addition to slowing. Even a nicely setup car like a camaro (although I have not tried out the 1le on the track yet) will go through a set of recovery reactions from harsh sudden inputs. A more measured and refined input will let you achieve your goals, IMHO, and not force the car to react so much, plus conserve your brakes. I find braking earlier, ensuring the input is gradual, increasing the pressure carefully, and then lifting off the brake equally tenderly works very very well. The goal is to apply your brakes in such a manner that no time is wasted by having to wait on the car to recover from a harsh abrupt input. As the car recovers more quickly from the braking phase, it is in turn ready to accept your next input (turning). But if you just wanted to see glowing rotors, your way probably works very well.

Very interesting discussion, I thought I'd weigh in. I'm no instructor but have had a lot of instruction and have attended two levels of Ron Fellows Driving School, and will pass on my perspective based on that and riding along with some of the best track rats I've known.

I agree with STI_TO_SS's post above, this is consistent with what I've learned. The fastest guys out there are also the smoothest. When approaching a corner, the last thing you want to do is upset the car with hard jabs of the brakes. When you do this, most of the weight transfers to the front tires and leaves very little grip in the back. You can brake hard, yes, but as was said above, smoothly transition from light to heavy to light. It's better to brake harder early and lighter late, as you approach the corner, so that the car is settled when you begin turn in. By the time you are beginning to turn in, you should be done with your heavy braking. As you turn in at corner entry, you should maintain a light pedal pressure to transfer a small amount of weight to the outside front tire so that you can turn more sharply. The pressure should be light enough that you will barely feel any deceleration. This is called "balance braking" or "trail braking." As you approach the apex, you should smoothly transition from light balance braking to a gradual ramping of acceleration, increasing acceleration proportional to the unwinding of the steering wheel. There are exceptions to this depending on the track, but this is the preferred way to drive most corners in a properly set up car like a 1LE.

If, on the other hand, you brake abruptly and induce nose dive at turn in, you have removed most of the grip on the rear tires. If you're turning a fast lap then you're driving the car near it's limits, and you need that rear grip or you will get loose and tail happy, perhaps inducing a spin. Plus, the car is unsettled, with the suspension dancing around in an uncontrolled fashion trying to recover from the abrupt braking and weight transfer. All you have to do is unload the wrong tire at the wrong time and you're sliding off the track.

Take a few hot laps with a top notch driver, you won't believe how smooth they are. You will be surprised at how fast their lap times are, because a smooth driver almost seems slower but they are clearly not.

[cornerspeed92]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I can't imagine they wouldn't have, either, but then somebody gets to decide whether retaining that much capability is warranted for the purely street-driven examples of that car.

#1 - pad compound. Street cars don't get race pads for reasons involving poor bite when cold, and significantly dustier, noisier, and harsher on rotor faces. Hawk's HP+ is really a sort-of-streetable entry-level track pad that may still not be enough for you; Hawk's better stuff starts with HT or DTC designations. In Carbotech, XP10 or higher.

#2 - additional cooling. I don't see any ducting. You need this.

#3 - I suspect that some here may be unaware of your two wheel track experience.


Off-topic and out of curiosity, did you happen to notice a blue Mustang (2013?) running the number 710 in painter's tape? A guy from one of the Mustang forms I belong to was making his "big track" debut, after about 20 years autocrossing (IOW, he's not a 20-something).


Norm

Hey Norm,yes i will be running the Hawks from now on.I will keep the stock pads for the street,but change pads before track day's.Yes,i do want and need a brake cooling set up.Im going to get the Quantum set up from JDP. I really like Dropspeeds set up though,just a little out of my ability to do,and price range.
Yes i remember your friend,i went to Caliphotography and copied his pic,hope it comes out.
http://www.caliphotography.com/photo...#image=3784914
The second one is obviously http://www.caliphotography.com/photo...#image=3785897

[cornerspeed92]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I can't imagine they wouldn't have, either, but then somebody gets to decide whether retaining that much capability is warranted for the purely street-driven examples of that car.

#1 - pad compound. Street cars don't get race pads for reasons involving poor bite when cold, and significantly dustier, noisier, and harsher on rotor faces. Hawk's HP+ is really a sort-of-streetable entry-level track pad that may still not be enough for you; Hawk's better stuff starts with HT or DTC designations. In Carbotech, XP10 or higher.

#2 - additional cooling. I don't see any ducting. You need this.

#3 - I suspect that some here may be unaware of your two wheel track experience.


Off-topic and out of curiosity, did you happen to notice a blue Mustang (2013?) running the number 710 in painter's tape? A guy from one of the Mustang forms I belong to was making his "big track" debut, after about 20 years autocrossing (IOW, he's not a 20-something).


Norm

Hey Norm,yes i will be running the Hawks from now on.I will keep the stock pads for the street,but change pads before track day's.Yes,i do want and need a brake cooling set up.Im going to get the Quantum set up from JDP. I really like Dropspeeds set up though,just a little out of my ability to do,and price range.
Yes i remember your friend,i went to Caliphotography and copied his pic,hope it comes out.
http://www.caliphotography.com/photo...#image=3784914

[cornerspeed92]

Here's one of mine.
http://www.caliphotography.com/photo...#image=3785897

[cornerspeed92]

Originally Posted by CrystalRedTintcoat

I was following your logic until you wrote, "Press so that the nose don't dive and then release so that the nose don't lift." I've had two separate private instructors say that you WANT the nose to dive to loosen the slip in the rear so you can have a lighter tail around corner before accelerating through the apex.

Cornerspeed and Dropspeed, you are both instructors. What's your take?

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Very interesting discussion, I thought I'd weigh in. I'm no instructor but have had a lot of instruction and have attended two levels of Ron Fellows Driving School, and will pass on my perspective based on that and riding along with some of the best track rats I've known.

I agree with STI_TO_SS's post above, this is consistent with what I've learned. The fastest guys out there are also the smoothest. When approaching a corner, the last thing you want to do is upset the car with hard jabs of the brakes. When you do this, most of the weight transfers to the front tires and leaves very little grip in the back. You can brake hard, yes, but as was said above, smoothly transition from light to heavy to light. It's better to brake harder early and lighter late, as you approach the corner, so that the car is settled when you begin turn in. By the time you are beginning to turn in, you should be done with your heavy braking. As you turn in at corner entry, you should maintain a light pedal pressure to transfer a small amount of weight to the outside front tire so that you can turn more sharply. The pressure should be light enough that you will barely feel any deceleration. This is called "balance braking" or "trail braking." As you approach the apex, you should smoothly transition from light balance braking to a gradual ramping of acceleration, increasing acceleration proportional to the unwinding of the steering wheel. There are exceptions to this depending on the track, but this is the preferred way to drive most corners in a properly set up car like a 1LE.

If, on the other hand, you brake abruptly and induce nose dive at turn in, you have removed most of the grip on the rear tires. If you're turning a fast lap then you're driving the car near it's limits, and you need that rear grip or you will get loose and tail happy, perhaps inducing a spin. Plus, the car is unsettled, with the suspension dancing around in an uncontrolled fashion trying to recover from the abrupt braking and weight transfer. All you have to do is unload the wrong tire at the wrong time and you're sliding off the track.

Take a few hot laps with a top notch driver, you won't believe how smooth they are. You will be surprised at how fast their lap times are, because a smooth driver almost seems slower but they are clearly not.

Hi guy's.I like to have all my braking done before entry,that way my car is planted and not upset in anyway.Then i can just accelerate thru the apex. Now that doesn't always happen,braking hard and late it's very easy to go in hot.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by cornerspeed92

Hi guy's.I like to have all my braking done before entry,that way my car is planted and not upset in anyway.Then i can just accelerate thru the apex. Now that doesn't always happen,braking hard and late it's very easy to go in hot.

So true, as my many off-road excursions show, lol.

I am holding out hope that my stock brakes will be sufficient without the need of a big brake kit. I have room to grow by upgrading to a better track pad if need be. When my rotors need replacement, I'll go with Racing Brake rotors or one of the other lightweight, cool running rotors. And like you, I will be adding cooling at some point.

Looking forward to tracking with you one day soon.