Camaro Z/28 Engineers Get a Grip on Wheel Slip [Video Added]

[TOYMARO]

bead loks

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by AlohaBR

I was waiting to see f that was how the fixed the issue!

We used this approach on our '69 Camaro. You do not have to go very deep into the tire, and it stops the slippage. I hated drilling perfectly good 8" Rally wheels, but it worked! I thought they were going to go with a bead lock on the Z/28.

[Mikebrinda]

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/camaro-z...161308591.html

[ThaCamaroKid]

Originally Posted by Camaro_Corvette

Wow that's interesting! I wonder how many vehicles run into that issue..

It is quite common among higher end cars with very sticky tires and high stopping power brakes. Or cars with very good grip in the back and enough power to cause this problem, not necessarily a car with high horsepower I know GT-R's have special wheels that on the inside have a secondary special lip, makes it a major pain in the ass to get tires on and off.

[RiCorvette]

Interesting problem and creative solution - I know how it goes; sometimes my mouth works faster than my brain, allowing words to slip out without proper engagement and sometimes putting the brakes on the conversation only makes it worse.

JK, btw.

Will a tire changing tool burnish away and smooth over the bead blasted surface over time, I wonder?

[LagunaSecaZL1]

This is actually a common problem with any car. As an earlier poster showed the TSB, using too much bead lubricant causes this problem.

I chased this problem for a decade on my Cobra Mustang, and swapped wheels, tires, harmonic balancer, driveshaft, and flywheel because I couldn't figure it out. I would go to the track with a sweet riding car and on the way home, above 60 MPH I would have a severe vibration. I would get the wheels rebalanced and it would be fine, then the problem came back after a track day. I bought the parts above because how could tires go out of balance that quickly. Each time I bought a new set of wheels and tires, the car would be great. Then I would track it and the problems would start all over again. Depending on the track temperature and ambient temperature, the problem could be annoying or horrible.

The interesting part, is that my rear wheels/tire slipping were worse than the fronts(see pictures). I do realize that they are different sides, it shows the left rear is much worse than the right rear. My front right would usually not slip at all and I think this is due to running tracks counter clockwise(it puts more weight on front right under braking).

I had also upgraded the fronts to 14" rotors with 4 piston Brembos and run Performance Friction 97 compound pads, so this problem could have been worse, but it wasn't. The rear pads were Hawk DTC-60 compound with stock calipers and rotors.

When I finally figured this out, I would mark the tire to match the valve stem, get them balanced, go to the track, and return to the same tire store to get them rebalanced, and tire guys would be in disbelief. I paid for each balancing.

I can say this, separately, Hunter Road Force balancing is worth every penny. Just mark you tires to you wheels if you do drive aggressively.

[LagunaSecaZL1]

The below post is golden. Heed the advice here.

Originally Posted by MS3DALE

This bulletin doesn't specifically apply to the Z/28,but rather all vehicles in general,just thought I would post it for some more information about how the slippage could be an issue.

Service Information




2014 Chevrolet Camaro | Camaro VIN F Service Manual 5534965 | View All Bulletins | Document ID: 3712007
#12-03-10-001A: Vibration Shortly After Tires are Mounted/Preventing Vibration from Wheel Slip (Tire Sliding on Wheel) - (Feb 21, 2014)
Subject: Vibration Shortly After Tires are Mounted/Preventing Vibration from Wheel Slip (Tire Sliding on Wheel)
Models: 2015 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and TrucksThis bulletin has been revised to add the 2014-2015 Model Years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 12-03-10-001.

Information: Vibration Caused by Wheel Slip

A customer concern of vibration shortly after having a tire or tires mounted may be caused by slippage of the tires on the wheels, placing the imbalance point of the tire away from the weight location.
Wheel slip is a condition that occurs when the tire slips and rotates on the wheel during acceleration or braking. This can cause the assembly to become imbalanced and result in the customer returning with a vibration from the tire/wheel assembly. Wheel slip is most common on clear coated or chrome wheels with very smooth bead seat areas, but may also occur on other alloy or steel wheels. Most slippage occurs immediately after mounting.
Using preferred tire mounting lubricants and proper lubricant application techniques can prevent wheel slip from occurring.



Wheel slip normally occurs for the following reasons:

• Excessive amount of lubricant used or lubricant applied in the wrong locations.
• Improper lubricants, non-preferred lubricants or improperly diluted lubricants may contain excessive moisture or components that do not dry sufficiently, resulting in an interface between the tire and rim that is excessively slippery.

Checking For Wheel Slip
Vehicles that return immediately with ride disturbances and out of balance assemblies should be checked for wheel slip. Wheel slip can be checked by placing a temporary mark on the tire at the valve stem. After driving the vehicle, if the wheel slip is less than one inch, then wheel slip is probably not contributing to a ride disturbance. When wheel slip is greater than one inch, and you felt a ride disturbance on the test drive, then wheel slip may be causing the vibration.
Note: This diagnostic test will only be effective if the vehicle has been serviced within the last couple of hours.



Best Practices to Eliminate Wheel Slip


Wheel slip can usually be prevented with the proper application of tire mounting lubricants in a controlled and consistent manner. The following are some recommended best practices for eliminating wheel slip.

1. Prior to the tire installation, clean the tire changer’s wheel-contact parts of any excess lubrication, dirt or grime.
2. Clean the bead seat areas of the wheel of any leftover lubricant used to demount the tire.
3. Inspect the tire to be installed and clean any manufacturing related lubricants from the bead area as necessary. Use an approved rubber cleaning fluid that would commonly be used during the tire repair process.
4. Do not use products containing silicone, alcohol, petroleum based products, solvents or corrosives for cleaning or lubrication.
5. Lubricate the tire and wheel as shown in the following illustrations. To eliminate wheel slip, the tire beads should normally only be lubricated from "heel to toe.” Lubricant applied outside the heel to toe zone will cause the tire to have reduced grip on the wheel and increase the likelihood of slippage. When lubricating the wheel, lubricate the safety humps, leave the rim flanges dry and lubricate the drop center area only for difficult to mount tires.
6. When additional lubrication is required during mounting to prevent tire damage, the excess lubricant should be wiped or cleaned from the tire bead area and the wheel bead seat area before inflating to seat the beads.
7. The mounting process must be completed within 10 minutes of the application of the mounting lubricant. Evaporation of the mounting lubricant after 10 minutes may prevent proper bead seating.
8. Inflate the tires to 275 kPa (40 psi) when mounting, then reduce the air pressure to the desired operating pressure.
9. Place a temporary mark on the sidewall of the tire at the valve stem.
10. Rebalance the tires and mount on the vehicle.
11. Park the vehicle for one hour to allow the lubricant to evaporate. Note: Technicians should not brake or accelerate quickly when moving vehicles from the hoist to the parking lot.
    
12. Test drive the vehicle to confirm the ride disturbance has been corrected. Confirm that the mark on the tire is still aligned with the valve stem locations and remove the temporary mark. The above photo shows the possible amount of slip.

Preferred Lubricant Recommendations
To minimize rim slip, always use commercially available lubricants made for bead seating to assist in tire mounting. Paste type lubes are recommended because the application can be better controlled and paste type lubes will not drip onto areas that should not be lubricated. If lubricants that require dilution are used, be sure to carefully follow the lubricant manufacturer’s instructions. Under diluted mixtures will not dry soon enough, which may cause wheel slip. Over diluted mixtures will dry too fast and may hamper proper bead seating.

Suitable paste lubricants include Rema Tip-Top® Tire Universal Mounting Paste if available in your area, Kent Xtra-Seal™ Euro-Paste Mounting Compound or equivalent. The Kent product is distributed nationally. Contact 1–800–YES-KENT for additional information on this product.
Important: When mounting the tires, rubber lubricant must be used. Also, the vehicle should not be driven aggressively (hard acceleration or braking) for up to 24 hours after tire mounting to allow the lubricant to dry. Failure to do so may cause the tire to slip on the rim. This condition will affect wheel balance, which could result in a vibration.

Tire Lubrication
Lubricate the tire as shown in the following illustration. To eliminate wheel slip, the tire beads should normally only be lubricated from "heel to toe.” Lubricant applied outside the heel to toe zone will cause the tire to have reduced grip on the wheel and increase the likelihood of slippage.

Tire Bead Lubrication


Wheel Lubrication
The following diagram illustrates the recommended lubrication of the wheel to prevent wheel slip. Lubricate the safety humps. Leave the rim flanges dry. Lubricate the drop center area only for difficult to mount tires.

Wheel Lubrication Points


Customer Notice
It is advisable especially for customers who are waiting for their vehicle during servicing be made aware that recently mounted tires should not be driven on in an aggressive manner. It may take up to 24 hours before the lubricant is completely dry and tires achieve maximum adherence to the rims. No matter the style of driving exhibited during the drying period, no air loss, or other detrimental attributes are possible from this condition. Wheel slip relative to the rim is merely a customer dissatisfier due to the potential to induce undesired vibration.
Parts Information

Part Number 74 - Description*Rema Tip-Top® Tire Universal Mounting Paste 22 lb (10 kg)

Part Number KT14127 - Description *Kent Xtra-Seal™ Euro-Paste Mounting Compound 11 lb (5 kg) Available from 1–800–YES-KENT

*We believe these sources and their products to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such material. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the products from these firms or for any such items which may be available from other sources.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

[Mikebrinda]

Originally Posted by LagunaSecaZL1

This is actually a common problem with any car. As an earlier poster showed the TSB, using too much bead lubricant causes this problem.

I chased this problem for a decade on my Cobra Mustang, and swapped wheels, tires, harmonic balancer, driveshaft, and flywheel because I couldn't figure it out. I would go to the track with a sweet riding car and on the way home, above 60 MPH I would have a severe vibration. I would get the wheels rebalanced and it would be fine, then the problem came back after a track day. I bought the parts above because how could tires go out of balance that quickly. Each time I bought a new set of wheels and tires, the car would be great. Then I would track it and the problems would start all over again. Depending on the track temperature and ambient temperature, the problem could be annoying or horrible.

The interesting part, is that my rear wheels/tire slipping were worse than the fronts(see pictures). I do realize that they are different sides, it shows the left rear is much worse than the right rear. My front right would usually not slip at all and I think this is due to running tracks counter clockwise(it puts more weight on front right under braking).

I had also upgraded the fronts to 14" rotors with 4 piston Brembos and run Performance Friction 97 compound pads, so this problem could have been worse, but it wasn't. The rear pads were Hawk DTC-60 compound with stock calipers and rotors.

When I finally figured this out, I would mark the tire to match the valve stem, get them balanced, go to the track, and return to the same tire store to get them rebalanced, and tire guys would be in disbelief. I paid for each balancing.

I can say this, separately, Hunter Road Force balancing is worth every penny. Just mark you tires to you wheels if you do drive aggressively.

Very informative!

[gen=5]

tire spin is nothing new to them.. I am sure they knew it could be a issue even before they started testing,and picked up on it almost right away...
But it makes for a great ad to help sell the car.....Makes you wonder how many other models they have had to fix this same issue on,or they just let it go as they figured that the car would see more street than track use....The new Z06 has to have just as much if even more of a issue,considering it's faster on any track than the ZR1...

[SamHouseIII]

Originally Posted by gen=5

tire spin is nothing new to them.. I am sure they knew it could be a issue even before they started testing,and picked up on it almost right away...
But it makes for a great ad to help sell the car.....Makes you wonder how many other models they have had to fix this same issue on,or they just let it go as they figured that the car would see more street than track use....The new Z06 has to have just as much if even more of a issue,considering it's faster on any track than the ZR1...

Well said, love the part and so true, Makes for a great ad to sell the car, just like "Flowtie"

Just plain crazy how many folks forget about the ZL1 and those accolades that went and are still with it!!

Z/28 is no doubt a great car but it is track specific.

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by SamHouseIII

Z/28 is no doubt a great car but it is track specfic.

Z/28 is no doubt a great car because it is track specfic. Fixed that for you.

Were it not track specific, it would not be the great car it is and I would not be interested to own one. And I've never had a desire to own a ZL1 (it's a very nice car for street cruisers).

Flowties and high-grip bead seats provide value to those of us who track in spite of the opinion of those who ceaselessly seek to find the dark lining to every silver cloud.

[SamHouseIII]

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

Z/28 is no doubt a great car because it is track specfic. Fixed that for you.

Were it not track specific, it would not be the great car it is and I would not be interested to own one. And I've never had a desire to own a ZL1 (it's a very nice car for street cruisers).

Flowties and high-grip bead seats provide value to those of us who track in spite of the opinion of those who ceaselessly seek to find the dark lining to every silver cloud.

No worries, I'll see you on the track with my street cruiser..

[Awill]

I didn't even know that was possible. sick

[gajagfan]

I do find it odd that this problem never showed up on a Z06. Does it have a bead blasted wheel? It also seems like it would be cheaper to machine a knurling into the bead area when the wheel was being machined, than an secondary operation. It is very interesting stuff, just some questions it would be nice to know the answers to.