Car And Driver comparison test: SS vs R/T vs GT

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by fdjizm

Denial sucks :( it's a shame people refuse to accept facts, ah well no use arguing.

You want facts..fine..

Fun to drive: Mustang 24, Camaro 21...(is this a fact?)
Gotta Have it: Mustang 22, Camaro 21 ??? (oh really?)
Performance: Mustang 20, Camaro 18 ??? (on what planet?)
Transmission: Mustang 8, Camaro 7 (So a manual 5 is better than a manual 6) (Which transmission does the GT500 use?)

I'm not going to list all of them but you get the point..Seems to me that you are confusing facts with biased opinions. The Camaro beats the Mustang in every category but one..How do you explain the performance rating? The transmission rating is disingenuous at best. And how is the fun to drive rating a fact? The "It" car is the Camaro..I have people running out to take a picture of the car and get asked a million questions everywhere I go.. The Gotta Have it rating should be Camaro 30, Mustang 10.. Since the Camaro is outselling the Mustang 3:1..

And this is coming from a proud Mustang owner as I have nothing against the current Mustang.. The Camaro is more fun to drive, has better performance, a better transmission, and is the "most wanted" car on the road..period.. The Mustang is a great car, however it does not deserve a win when the facts clearly place the Camaro ahead in performance and handling.. The Mustang needs the track pack add-on just to keep up..

[fdjizm]

Not even getting into it, been there done that, got a t-shirt. enjoy your day sir

btw this thread was from june.

[MrIcky]

First of all, I probably shouldn't say anything because it makes me feel like I'm pro-Mustang. I'd much rather have a Camaro but I want to take another stab at explaining this whole 6 is automatically better than 5 thing. I want to start by saying a magazine reviews 'as is', with little to no regard for how many mods a tranny can take.

Here are the gear ratios on a Camaro (per the same test):
3.01 2.07 1.43 1.00 .84 .57 with a 3.45 axle ratio

The Mustang has

3.38 2.00 1.32 1.00 .68

For comparison purposes, a 370z

3.79 2.32 1.62 1.27 1.00 .79


In bold are the overdrive gears. You'll notice the Camaro has 2. It CAN have 2 because it has that big beautiful engine, but that's also a nod to MPG. Performance wise- only your 1st 4 gears are really going to count

In italics are going to be the gears you spend your time in when you are trying to stay "on the boil", keeping the engine in the horsepower sweetspot. These are the gears less than 2.00 thru 1.00:1. The Camaro has a fairly sizeable jump from 3rd to 4th. They can do this because of the huge torque, but it takes away from the 'fun factor' of being able to keep the engine in that peak powerband range. The 370z demonstrates this best- very tight gear ratios which require you to be active to get the most out of it. The 370z is going to 'feel' more fun to shift all else being equal because it has a close ratio whereas the Chevy has the widest ratio in those middle gears where the magic occurs.

So, when you put the combination of: 2 overdrive gears, a wider ratio, and of course- the 1st to 4th skipshift - I can see how other transmissions, including 5 speeds- get rated higher.

Another comparison is the GT500

2.97 1.78 1.30 1.00 .74 .50

Again 2 OD gearsHowever there are 3 gears with fairly tight ratios with a very close 3rd to 4th.

The Camaro can get away with these gear ratios with no big negatives due to it's prodigious torque. At the end of the day though, Camaro's solve all of their issues with torque. It's got 1 tool in it's tool belt-a hammer-it's the best hammer for miles though. The mustang's hammer isn't as nice- but it's also got a screwdriver and a saw. And not all Tremecs have the same gear cut.

[fdjizm]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

First of all, I probably shouldn't say anything because it makes me feel like I'm pro-Mustang. I'd much rather have a Camaro but I want to take another stab at explaining this whole 6 is automatically better than 5 thing. I want to start by saying a magazine reviews 'as is', with little to no regard for how many mods a tranny can take.

Here are the gear ratios on a Camaro (per the same test):
3.01 2.07 1.43 1.00 .84 .57 with a 3.45 axle ratio

The Mustang has

3.38 2.00 1.32 1.00 .68

For comparison purposes, a 370z

3.79 2.32 1.62 1.27 1.00 .79


In bold are the overdrive gears. You'll notice the Camaro has 2. It CAN have 2 because it has that big beautiful engine, but that's also a nod to MPG. Performance wise- only your 1st 4 gears are really going to count

In italics are going to be the gears you spend your time in when you are trying to stay "on the boil", keeping the engine in the horsepower sweetspot. These are the gears less than 2.00 thru 1.00:1. The Camaro has a fairly sizeable jump from 3rd to 4th. They can do this because of the huge torque, but it takes away from the 'fun factor' of being able to keep the engine in that peak powerband range. The 370z demonstrates this best- very tight gear ratios which require you to be active to get the most out of it. The 370z is going to 'feel' more fun to shift all else being equal because it has a close ratio whereas the Chevy has the widest ratio in those middle gears where the magic occurs.

So, when you put the combination of: 2 overdrive gears, a wider ratio, and of course- the 1st to 4th skipshift - I can see how other transmissions, including 5 speeds- get rated higher.

Another comparison is the GT500

2.97 1.78 1.30 1.00 .74 .50

Again 2 OD gearsHowever there are 3 gears with fairly tight ratios with a very close 3rd to 4th.

The Camaro can get away with these gear ratios with no big negatives due to it's prodigious torque. At the end of the day though, Camaro's solve all of their issues with torque. It's got 1 tool in it's tool belt-a hammer-it's the best hammer for miles though. The mustang's hammer isn't as nice- but it's also got a screwdriver and a saw. And not all Tremecs have the same gear cut.

thank you for that well thought out explanation depends on the application whether 4 5 or 6 gears are best for "x" car, i doubt he wouild say how much 3 speed drag cars suck because they have half the gears, it's all about gearing not the number of gears.. a mustang is not going into 5th on the track and neither is a camaro. u can have 9 gears it doesn't automatically make it better. thanks again maybe some people can understand noww

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Supermans

The Camaro beats the Mustang in every category but one..How do you explain the performance rating?

Camaro accelerates better, Camaro stops better in terms of brake fade, end of performance advantage for the Chevy. In every dynamic respect Mustang is a better handler, and not by a small margin. I suppose which car is the better performance cars depends on which performance parameters matter most to you.

Originally Posted by Supermans

The transmission rating is disingenuous at best.

You are going to have to give me a better reason than 'cause it has another gear' for this one. Would I prefer a six speed to a five speed?.....all else being equal yeah, unless torque is so prodigious that extra gears are simply superfluous. But all else isn't always equal. Thunderbird Super Coupes had such a terrible five speed I would gladly take the auto instead, and that surprises even me. Gear spacing, shift quality, etc.. all contribute to how good a manual transmission is or isn't and, by all appearances, the Camaro's Tremec isn't stellar.

Originally Posted by Supermans

And how is the fun to drive rating a fact? The "It" car is the Camaro..I have people running out to take a picture of the car and get asked a million questions everywhere I go.. The Gotta Have it rating should be Camaro 30, Mustang 10.. Since the Camaro is outselling the Mustang 3:1..

This is their 'gotta have it' rating, meaning after they have experienced both they tell us which car they would personally rather have. It should tell you something that, despite the drool-fest the revived Camaro started, as time goes on and the newness wears off of the Camaro the number of folks who have experienced both and yet prefer the Mustang is rising substantially. In less than a year I think the Camaro will be losing every comparo against the Mustang in every major magazine.

[2tons of fun]

I'm hoping a whole sh*t-ton of people buy Mustangs....Makes my SS even more rare and unique. I chose the Chevy over the mustang by choice and I'm a former Mustang Cobra owner. To each his own, really. My opionion is the Camaro is a better car and for the record my opinion is all that matters when I am doing the purchasing. I'm surely glad we all don't own the same car.... IMO

[MrIcky]

Originally Posted by 2tons of fun

I'm hoping a whole sh*t-ton of people buy Mustangs....Makes my SS even more rare and unique. I chose the Chevy over the mustang by choice and I'm a former Mustang Cobra owner. To each his own, really. My opionion is the Camaro is a better car and for the record my opinion is all that matters when I am doing the purchasing. I'm surely glad we all don't own the same car.... IMO

Amen

[Ash1977]

Originally Posted by 2tons of fun

I'm hoping a whole sh*t-ton of people buy Mustangs....Makes my SS even more rare and unique. I chose the Chevy over the mustang by choice and I'm a former Mustang Cobra owner. To each his own, really. My opionion is the Camaro is a better car and for the record my opinion is all that matters when I am doing the purchasing. I'm surely glad we all don't own the same car.... IMO

You should hope that GM sells a lot of the Camaros. I hope they do. GM plans to sell over 100,000 a year. If they don't, they will discontinue it like they did in 2002. Ford sells a ton of Mustangs(I know, you see them everywhere). That is why they have made them for 45 years straight. The only reason why GM is making the Camaro is that 2005 Mustang was such a big hit. Parts will be cheaper also if there are more on the road. The more muscle cars, the better.

[rodimus prime]

Originally Posted by fdjizm

thank you for that well thought out explanation depends on the application whether 4 5 or 6 gears are best for "x" car, i doubt he wouild say how much 3 speed drag cars suck because they have half the gears, it's all about gearing not the number of gears.. a mustang is not going into 5th on the track and neither is a camaro. u can have 9 gears it doesn't automatically make it better. thanks again maybe some people can understand noww

99 times out of 100 a six speed will be a better transmission.

You know where you can stick your 3speed drag trans analogy because its stupid. Yes I had a 6 speed 4th gen and yes I ditched the 6 speed for a stalled th350. But then I also drove at 55mph on the highway. It was better for drag and thats it.

Common sense here please.

Can you imagine if the 5th gen came with a 3 speed manual? Even if it was rated to 1,00000000000000,99900909080 lbft of torque it would still be a laughing stock...much like people who think a 2010 mustang gt has a better transmission than a 2010 camaro.

Evidence does not support that. At all. Period.

[Ninjak]

Once again, you need to re-read the thread on gears. 6 gears is nothing but a MPG saver for HO apps. For most cars...some have it because of the "I have a 6spd!!!" crowd. It does not mean the tranny is better.

So I guess the Honda accord has a high end tranny because it is a 6spd huh ? I guess the Honda accord really needed two OD gears huh ? Funny how even in 6 gear I have a lower RPM at 70 in 5th than a accord does at 70 in 6th.

[fdjizm]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

99 times out of 100 a six speed will be a better transmission.

You know where you can stick your 3speed drag trans analogy because its stupid. Yes I had a 6 speed 4th gen and yes I ditched the 6 speed for a stalled th350. But then I also drove at 55mph on the highway. It was better for drag and thats it.

Common sense here please.

Can you imagine if the 5th gen came with a 3 speed manual? Even if it was rated to 1,00000000000000,99900909080 lbft of torque it would still be a laughing stock...much like people who think a 2010 mustang gt has a better transmission than a 2010 camaro.

Evidence does not support that. At all. Period.

go away. you cannot accept anything.

[JewelZ]

Originally Posted by Bocephus

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1

Haha if you look closely the only reason the mustang won is because they didn't have drivers in the seats of the other cars. hahah!!!!

[fdjizm]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

99 times out of 100 a six speed will be a better transmission.

You know where you can stick your 3speed drag trans analogy because its stupid. Yes I had a 6 speed 4th gen and yes I ditched the 6 speed for a stalled th350. But then I also drove at 55mph on the highway. It was better for drag and thats it.

Common sense here please.

Can you imagine if the 5th gen came with a 3 speed manual? Even if it was rated to 1,00000000000000,99900909080 lbft of torque it would still be a laughing stock...much like people who think a 2010 mustang gt has a better transmission than a 2010 camaro.

Evidence does not support that. At all. Period.

let me try just one more time... and then i will give up on you ever accepting anything but your own logic.

being that you ignored the document from GM that i posted on the spec's of the 2010 camaro tranny lets go slower...

4 5 6 7 8 9 or 10 gears do not matter if they are not geared right for the power of the engine.

the camaro tr6060 with the m10 gearset IS rated at 430ft-lbs this is right from GM i dont know how you ignored that but you managed to.

the camaro tr606 is NOT the same tr6060 in the vette or the gt500. but you ignored that you said and i quote "b.s."

the camaro tr6060 has wide ratios and a high (numerically lower) rear end gear attributing to some acceleration loss.

now these are NOT my opinion. these are FACTS not LIES like you love to say... please respond to what i posted and not a random blurb about how "mustangs are not faster pshhh" I did not say they were, please get that through your head.

[rodimus prime]

LOL man you guys crack me up.


Do you seriously believe that I think a econobox 6 speed is the same as a tremec? LOL


Way to go to extremes to try and make a point. I thought we were talking about performance cars here.

I hate to break it to you, but the tr6060 is obviously capable of holding over 430 lbft of torque. If you dont believe that your delusional. Otherwise every forced induction 2010 would of cooked one by now.

Do you really believe your tr3650 is a better transmission than a tr6060?

So if ford were to upgrade your tr3650 to a tr6060 you wouldnt take it?

LOL.


Hey we could go back to powerglides for street cars, I mean as long as they are geared right it doesnt matter right?