Turbos; journal bearings vs ball bearings?

[1KillerSS]

Originally Posted by Unreal

Taco, I much much much rather see you put that $1000 towards a fuel system, or meth, or tires, or a clutch than BB if you don't have the other stuff IMO. Now if that is all taken care of and you have an extra $1k laying around, do it. Otherwise I would put money that a journal bearing with meth, or journal bearing with a real fuel system will be faster/safer/funner than a ball bearing without that. Then again you can always add fuel/meth later, and may want to spend the extra up front, but if that isn't the case, put it towards fueling/octane.

Without having first hand experience, that was the sole reason I chose to go with the JB turbos. When your looking at a 10 thousand dollar plus build, a thousand isn't much, however when you start adding up that spread sheet, you start to shake your head, once you total it all up.Then start to look at what you can take off that list, or at least chose to do at a later date.

When I came into the market for an FI system, I looked at a few different turbo setups, none of them really made me go wow, then Kevin at AGP made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I happen to like that nobody knows what they are looking at once they open the hood. Cant wait to follow your build.

[SrtWtF]

I've had both and the bb wins hands down no competition. It spools faster and holds more boost, makes the power more easily and in my opinion have always lasted longer.
For example ask anyone making power on those supras, turbo vette what they run pretty sure it's bb

[Taco Time]

Originally Posted by 1KillerSS

Without having first hand experience, that was the sole reason I chose to go with the JB turbos. When your looking at a 10 thousand dollar plus build, a thousand isn't much, however when you start adding up that spread sheet, you start to shake your head, once you total it all up.Then start to look at what you can take off that list, or at least chose to do at a later date.

When I came into the market for an FI system, I looked at a few different turbo setups, none of them really made me go wow, then Kevin at AGP made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I happen to like that nobody knows what they are looking at once they open the hood. Cant wait to follow your build.

I'm several months in at looking into a FI setup. I've been asking Kevin dumb questions for quite some time now. I was joking with my buddy yesterday that this $8k turbo setup is turning into a $16k turbo setup. So I am def going over my list and prioritizing things, seeing what can wait vs what can't.

Originally Posted by SrtWtF

I've had both and the bb wins hands down no competition. It spools faster and holds more boost, makes the power more easily and in my opinion have always lasted longer.
For example ask anyone making power on those supras, turbo vette what they run pretty sure it's bb

Thanks. Faster spooling is a def plus in my book.

[stevieturbo]

Originally Posted by SrtWtF

I've had both and the bb wins hands down no competition. It spools faster and holds more boost, makes the power more easily and in my opinion have always lasted longer.
For example ask anyone making power on those supras, turbo vette what they run pretty sure it's bb

You've back to back evidence on a V8 using low-moderate boost to backup those claims ?

Comparing to smaller motors including even the Supra that are high rpm, high boost setups....are just vastly different.

Like for like there will be negligible difference in power, nor any ability to "hold boost", whatever that means.

The OEM always use journal bearings....so you can be sure they offer better longevity than any BB ever will when the turbo is selected and used correctly.

But again for high boost applications, the BB's bearing designs do offer more support than the thrust bearing of a JB....of course how much load is applied to any bearings also depends on the pre turbine pressure and boost pressure relationship, so again it isnt so clear cut.

BB's on V8's are not as common as you think, simply because the JB's do the job for much less money.
By all means if the money isnt an issue I'd choose the BB myself. But it always is, and for me the extra cost just isnt outweighed by a big enough margin with potential performance.

[UF4LIFE102SS]

Originally Posted by stevieturbo

You've back to back evidence on a V8 using low-moderate boost to backup those claims ?

Comparing to smaller motors including even the Supra that are high rpm, high boost setups....are just vastly different.

Like for like there will be negligible difference in power, nor any ability to "hold boost", whatever that means.

The OEM always use journal bearings....so you can be sure they offer better longevity than any BB ever will when the turbo is selected and used correctly.

But again for high boost applications, the BB's bearing designs do offer more support than the thrust bearing of a JB....of course how much load is applied to any bearings also depends on the pre turbine pressure and boost pressure relationship, so again it isnt so clear cut.

BB's on V8's are not as common as you think, simply because the JB's do the job for much less money.
By all means if the money isnt an issue I'd choose the BB myself. But it always is, and for me the extra cost just isnt outweighed by a big enough margin with potential performance.

So BB is BETTER?

[stevieturbo]

Originally Posted by UF4LIFE102SS

So BB is BETTER?

Of course in terms of performance yes.

But is it $1000 or more better ? that is the question. Or could the $1000+ be better spent elsewhere ?

And although you'd hope you never need to, come rebuild time all JB turbos are pretty easily rebuilt. Not always the case with BB turbos.

And the likes of Garrett BB turbos, they cannot be rebuilt, you need to buy a new core.

[AGP Turbo]

We've been rebuilding Garrett Ball Bearing turbos for 10-12yrs now. They are faster spooling, better all around turbos. All of our really advanced, custom hybrid turbos are all built on Garrett ball bearing CHRA's.

[Reelgrinder]

Originally Posted by AGP Turbo

We've been rebuilding Garrett Ball Bearing turbos for 10-12yrs now. They are faster spooling, better all around turbos. All of our really advanced, custom hybrid turbos are all built on Garrett ball bearing CHRA's.

So what would one choose if they have a 417 w forged callies internals laying around?

If your goal is around 800 now and later 1000 at the wheels as you save for a better fuel system?

I'd like to have some ideas on cars ya'll have done with these similar mods. On 93 with out meth and e85..

Livernoise/lingenfeter dual pump or Zl1 with boosta
CNC LS3 heads
850 injectors
10:1 compression

[AGP Turbo]

Originally Posted by Reelgrinder

So what would one choose if they have a 417 w forged callies internals laying around?

If your goal is around 800 now and later 1000 at the wheels as you save for a better fuel system?

I'd like to have some ideas on cars ya'll have done with these similar mods. On 93 with out meth and e85..

Livernoise/lingenfeter dual pump or Zl1 with boosta
CNC LS3 heads
850 injectors
10:1 compression

The best would be a pair of BorgWarner EFR 7670's. They are billet compressor wheel and a super light Ti alloy turbine wheel in a ball bearing configuration that are literally the turbos used in Indy cars. They are $1000 more than Garrett ballbearings but are simply the best turbos you can buy. If going Garrett then I'd go billet 55/57's.

On pump gas without meth these are going to be around 800whp with a safe tune. But that is only limited by octane, as soon as you go E85 then 1000whp is easy. Meth would also make a great addition since you are 10:1 to keep things happy and safe.

[Reelgrinder]

What if I can only afford journals :(

[Unreal]

Then power is same, just spool slightly slower.

[Reelgrinder]

Yes I got that.. but which ones alot pull dwn options..

[Unreal]

Call and talk to them. That list of pull down options is just a small list of what is available. Let Kevin spec you the correct turbos. Phone call works best for that.

Any of the 56mm and up will do what you want with ease. Question is if you want to stop at 1000 or want more later. Do you want the quickest spooling and really cap if at 1000rwhp, or do you want them to come on a bit later and be able to make 1200rwhp later.

[AGP Turbo]

Then billet 55/57 JB's.