FbodFather....we need your help!

[blaSSt]

Scott I applaude GM for the strides they are taken. I do disagree on Ethanol.

Ethanol is a disaster! PLEASE do not write your congressman or senators about more Ethanol!

1. Currently is upsets the balance of food crop production.
2. The new celluosic processes generate less energy than the feedstock used to produce it.
3. Pollution, combustion products
4. Is only viable with Government subsidies (taxpayer $$$$)

Case in point:
Oil & Gas Journal published an extensive, technical article on turning wood waste into Ethanol in their June 2 mag. Here's what it boiled down to: take 2500 tons of wood waste per day (sawdust, wood351.90/ton and after investment and operating expenses, the Ethanol could be made for $1.10/gallon and sold for $2.23/gallon.

Sounds great right!

Only one thing....what is done with the wood waste now?

Answer: it is burned in the mills' boilers.

Now the wood has a heating value of 9 MM BTU/ton or 22,500 MM BTU/day.
Ethanol has a heating value of 75,700 BTU/gal or 11,430 MM BTU/day.
So the useful energy is cut in half.

BUT what the article failed to account for: All of a sudden the mill has lost all that fuel that was running its boilers. The boilers still need to run so what does the mill have to do? Buy more coal or natural gas to fuel the boilers. Actually the mill would have to buy so much coal it would cost $112,500/day or about $0.75/gallon!!!

Ethanol is voodoo economics whether it's corn, sugar, wood, switchgrass, etc. It is a net loser.

PLEASE STOP THE ETHANOL INSANITY!!!

Conserve where you can.
Drill here ASAP.
Ramp up Nuclear.
That buys us the 30-50 years it will take to develop a new substantial source of energy.

[B2E2RUN]

EVERY industry gets gov't subsidies.
I like ethanol, and will continue to use and promote it. Technology over time will cure all the negatives in producing it, and i think it is a good thing for farmers. My .02 coming from a farm in Indiana.

[fbodfather]

First - the figures you use have been disproven -- however, GM is not talking about Corn based Ethanol......

Rather:

GM announced a strategic alliance and investment on May 1 with a second bio-fuels company (Mascoma -- the first being Coskata -) They use a biochemical process to make ethanol from wood and agricultural waste and is working on a process that will go directly from plant material to ethanol in a single step.

Coskata will begin producing cellulosic ethanol from a Madison Pennsylvania plan in 2009 -- It is targeting a full-scale plant capable of 50 million to 100 million gallons annually coming on line in late 2010.

Coskata's process can convert each ton of biomass into more than 100 gallons of low-cost ethanol. -- Right now in the United states, it's conservatively estimated that there are more than 1 billion tons of biomass that can be converted into fuel annually.........

That's just to start.

NOt a lot of time to go into detail -- but there are ways to make Ethanol from used tires -- biomass in landfills (that have been there for years...) and many other sources.

Corn is not the answer, but it's also not evil as proposed by some.

[B2E2RUN]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

First - the figures you use have been disproven -- however, GM is not talking about Corn based Ethanol......

Rather:

GM announced a strategic alliance and investment on May 1 with a second bio-fuels company (Mascoma -- the first being Coskata -) They use a biochemical process to make ethanol from wood and agricultural waste and is working on a process that will go directly from plant material to ethanol in a single step.

Coskata will begin producing cellulosic ethanol from a Madison Pennsylvania plan in 2009 -- It is targeting a full-scale plant capable of 50 million to 100 million gallons annually coming on line in late 2010.

Coskata's process can convert each ton of biomass into more than 100 gallons of low-cost ethanol. -- Right now in the United states, it's conservatively estimated that there are more than 1 billion tons of biomass that can be converted into fuel annually.........

That's just to start.

NOt a lot of time to go into detail -- but there are ways to make Ethanol from used tires -- biomass in landfills (that have been there for years...) and many other sources.

Corn is not the answer, but it's also not evil as proposed by some.

You sooo smart! No wonder Fran you more than me!

[35th02ss]

Originally Posted by B2E2RUN

You sooo smart! No wonder Fran you more than me!

She loves everyone more than you...........

[B2E2RUN]

I know...

[blaSSt]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

First - the figures you use have been disproven --

That is a false statement I do not appreciate.

The wood waste article is a perfect example of how Ethanol purveyors only look at half of the total story in a way that suits their interest.

A major portion of that one billion tons of biomass goes back into the soil and becomes nutrients feeding the next growing cycle. It's removal will have unintended consequences. There is always something given up.

[B2E2RUN]

needs a prius...or already has one.

Don't be like that, esp with FBodfather. If you have all the answers, get a group of investors and start raking in the cash.

[1st Gen Forever]

Interesting read on the Ethanol discussion...

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/20199/

Seems like this process even works with plastic. Can't think of what plastic in a landfill contributes to the environment.

[B2E2RUN]

It is good. Goes along with what FBodFather is saying...

[1st Gen Forever]

Originally Posted by B2E2RUN

It is good. Goes along with what FBodFather is saying...

Agreed! I'd much rather make Ethanol out of plasic than throw it in the landfill!

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by blaSSt

That is a false statement I do not appreciate.

The wood waste article is a perfect example of how Ethanol purveyors only look at half of the total story in a way that suits their interest.

A major portion of that one billion tons of biomass goes back into the soil and becomes nutrients feeding the next growing cycle. It's removal will have unintended consequences. There is always something given up.

Sorry --my intent is not to upset you (or anyone else...) but what IS true is that there are many myths about Ethanol -- some of them true -- some of them not......

Corn based Ethanol is not a solution......Biomass Ethanol can be.........wouldn't it be great if we could tap landfills that have been sitting for years -- to create ethanol -- and also take care of waste???

As you (and others) have pointed out -- there is no one single silver bullet --

As a leader of transportation world-wide (and a citizen of this earth...) it behooves GM to come up with a MENU of fuel solutions -- and that's exactly what we're doing ...

Ethanol is one of those solutions -- and that's why we're investing in it as well as Electric/Hydrogen/etc. -- and that is why I don't agree with your appeal to tell people not to write to their elected leaders to work on Ethanol solutions........it is the quickest way to make an immediate impact........

[chadrcr]

A MENU of fuel solutions......that is what I am talking about!!!!

[aston70]

I'll have a plate of biomass and a tall glass of Ethanol please... Thank you...