Does Camaro own the muscle/pony car market?

[PDXSSCE]

To add a couple of points...

Originally Posted by Criticalmass

The Challenger's major refresh has been pushed back twice now. They won't see a brand new Challenger (or a replacement like the Cuda) until 2021 thanks to Fiat and Sergio.

The Challenger has been refreshed a couple of times. It's the new model which has been delayed due to Sergio's & FCA's brainlessness.

Originally Posted by Criticalmass

All reports indicate that the new Mustang is selling like hotcakes (it was the #1 seller in Germany in April)...

It actually outsold the Porsche 911 in Germany, which had never been done by any sports car.

[Kenny Camaro]

Challenger looks like a cigar box with a brick set on top. Too boxy, no flow. It looks like it was a 1975 model, or what ever the next year would have been when the quit that style in the 70's

[Kenny Camaro]

Originally Posted by Criticalmass

As to the rental fleet comment. Ford has been actively reducing rental fleet sales as they feel it lowers the value of their vehicles. In the last couple of years they have cut rental fleet sales in half and they will only sell the V6 base model Mustang for rental fleet duty.

I read two weeks ago that they are renewing the rent-a-racer program with Hertz, offering the GT 350 for a mere 400 per day.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

...It looks like it was a 1975 model, or what ever the next year would have been when the quit that style in the 70's

It's precisely what it's supposed to look like & that's the beauty of it.

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

I read two weeks ago that they are renewing the rent-a-racer program with Hertz, offering the GT 350 for a mere 400 per day.

Yes, but it's limited to 140 vehicles.

http://newsroom.hertz.com/news-releases?item=137505

[The_Driver]

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

Challenger looks like a cigar box with a brick set on top. Too boxy, no flow. It looks like it was a 1975 model, or what ever the next year would have been when the quit that style in the 70's

It just needs about 4" sectioned out of the body and then it would look ideal. The 5th gen can look pretty chunky too, but if you lower it a little and don't go too crazy with the huge wagon wheels and the super thick ground effects, it's not too bad.

[4510]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

I'm referring to the cars overall. While the Challenger has more power, one feels the additional size & weight too. The Camaro feels more compact & nimble.
It's these aspects combined, that I believe make the Challenger more muscle car & the Camaro more pony car.

Why do you feel the Challenger has more power? If you compare the model lines side by side aligned by MSRP ... the Camaro isn't underpowered. The only place there is a significant disparity is at the top of the Challenger with the Hellcat...

[Criticalmass]

Originally Posted by istynk

The new challenger looks great, I just don't know if the are as problem free as the 5th gen camaro has been.

I frequent a challenger forum, and it's pretty boring over there. Compared to the Corvette, they have maybe 1 major issue going on, and that's rusting inside the quarter panels due to the insulator foam that was used to cut down on road noise (it holds moisture and causes the inside of the panel to eventually rust through).

Still, I wouldn't want to own one. Chrysler may not even be around in a few more years.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by istynk

The new challenger looks great, I just don't know if the are as problem free as the 5th gen camaro has been.

I've had my Camaro for only 7 months, but having owned Challengers for 5 years, I assure you they're far from trouble free.

Originally Posted by 4510

Why do you feel the Challenger has more power? If you compare the model lines side by side aligned by MSRP ... the Camaro isn't underpowered. The only place there is a significant disparity is at the top of the Challenger with the Hellcat...

My statement was based on the simple fact that the Challenger is available with 485 & 707 HP. Additionally, because of the Hemi 'rumble', the driving experience of the 5.7L 372 HP felt like more power than the 6.2L 400 HP. I didn't state the Camaro is under powered nor did I compare them based on MSRP. I love my Camaro, but frankly, if the new Challenger/Barracuda/Whatever provides the Hemi 'rumble' in a lighter & more nimble car when the new model arrives (someday), I might return to Mopar.

Originally Posted by Criticalmass

I frequent a challenger forum, and it's pretty boring over there. Compared to the Corvette, they have maybe 1 major issue going on, and that's rusting inside the quarter panels due to the insulator foam that was used to cut down on road noise (it holds moisture and causes the inside of the panel to eventually rust through).

Still, I wouldn't want to own one. Chrysler may not even be around in a few more years.

Don't forget the infamous timing chain problem which is still causing catastrophic failure in some engines. Additionally, there are plenty of smaller quality issues.

[4510]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

My statement was based on the simple fact that the Challenger is available with 485 & 707 HP. Additionally, because of the Hemi 'rumble', the driving experience of the 5.7L 372 HP felt like more power than the 6.2L 400 HP. I didn't state the Camaro is under powered nor did I compare them based on MSRP. I love my Camaro, but frankly, if the new Challenger/Barracuda/Whatever provides the Hemi 'rumble' in a lighter & more nimble car when the new model arrives (someday), I might return to Mopar.

The 485 HP Challengers are almost ZL-1 price point. So again Camaro get's the HP nod per $.

As you know there is no Hellcat equivalent in the Camaro lineup.

I had a 2010 Challenger R/T w/supercharged 5.7. It did well against stock SS Camaros. Fun car and very comfortable for long trips etc. Also got a lot more attention from people with it than I get in my 13 SS Camaro.

The Challengers feel like I climb into them... the SS feels like I put it on. Of course entrance and exit is much easier in the Challenger.

The Hellcat is a whole different ball game. Tho, general public has little idea what it is. But when someone sees it that does know, it turns into a 20 minute conversation.

My SS with turbos pushes more HP than the Hellcat but the kitty is much more refined in applying its power. The SS is like white knuckle, hang on, front flying all over the place, rear tires letting go unpredictably etc.

The Hellcat just GOOOOOOES! Period.

I don't know which one is quicker side by side. Might get some track times on them later in the year.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by 4510

...Also got a lot more attention from people with it than I get in my 13 SS Camaro.

Yeah, I miss that part of it too... a lot.

Today in Portland it was 73 degrees & sunny. I put the top down & took the long way home... while listening to Supertramp. In all honesty, not even the Hellcat would beat the feeling.

[qcman]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

took the long way home... while listening to Supertramp.

I see what you did there

[drew peacock]

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

Challenger looks like a cigar box with a brick set on top. Too boxy, no flow. It looks like it was a 1975 model, or what ever the next year would have been when the quit that style in the 70's

yeah i hate the looks of them..so does my lad...really dont understand all the fuss.

[MrChrisLS3]

The GTO was great car, it was the closest thing GM had to the Camaro. It was doomed from the beginning however. I recall a lot of outrage from the enthusiast crowd that they brought no heritage from the old GTO, and simply put an LS powertrain into an Australian car and called it a day. That was back when GM was toying with the idea of making Pontiac their "performance division".

From the very beginning GM targeted the Mustang with the Camaro. Word has it that when they went to design the Camaro, GM purchased a Mustang and took it apart, and designed every part of the Camaro to be better than the part in the Mustang.

Fast forward to today. The Gen 6 Camaro is again a really superior design to it's competitors. But it has some hurdles that the 2010 did not have. First, it is not a re-launch of a classic that was in hiatus for eight years. Since it does somewhat resemble the previous generation, it is not as ground breaking. So, with so many 2015's sitting on dealer's lots with discounts and incentives attached, it has to compete with it's older self. As those '15's start to find new homes, we'll see the '16's start moving.

Then there is the competition. The Mustang is a really good car. Ford did a great job with this car. Adding the IRS, streamlining the body, and great design, all make this car very popular. Like the Gen 6 Camaro, the Mustang has taking that turn into legitimate "sports car" territory more so than "muscle car" classification. In terms of new car sales, the Mustang has another advantage, it is beginning it's third year of production, meaning that there are incentives and discounts available.

The Challenger on the other hand, is still holding on to it's heritage as a "muscle car". It's a nice looking car, and for those that want a true muscle car, it's a solid choice. The Hellcat was a great move and they couldn't build them fast enough at the price point. The SRT and the Scat Pak are great choices as well. it doesn't seem to provide the all around driving experience that the Camaro and Mustang provide, however. It's still big and heavy.

I feel that 2017 is going to be Camaro's year to retake the market share. As the '17's roll onto the lots here in couple of months, fourth quarter sales of '16's might ramp up if GM throws an incentive there. The '17 MY will also see the popular 1LE car coming back, and this package will also be available on the V6, that alone is going to drive some additional sales. Then, of course, there will be the return of the ZL1, which by all appearances is almost a no brainer against the GT350. Not to mention that it might be a great option for those balking at six figures for a Z06.

Granted, pricing is a small hurdle for the Gen 6, but trim level for trim level it's really only a couple of grand for the 1SS, and about 3 grand for the 2SS. There's also some things that are standard on the '16's that you had to pay for on the Gen 5, so it's almost a wash. Then considering the performance and handling increase, it's almost a bargain, as the '16 SS Camaro is dangerously close to the Corvette in that department.

[Rock-It Man]

Here in Eastern Massachusetts, it's not even close.

I see maybe one Camaro a week, and probably 20 Mustangs a day. I have no idea why that is.