Spoiler Wing Pictures

[JOHNSONROD]

kinda like this. this may not be the exact one. im in class sry.

https://www.amazon.com/PLASTIC-CUSTO...ic+sheet+black

[Wasted Youth]

Originally Posted by JOHNSONROD

i wasnt trying to start a debate. i believe what i believe based on my own experience. i do all my own work and i track a lot.
i had a small spoiler on and i thought it helped. i made a bigger spoiler and i was pretty sure it helped. i pulled the big spoiler, put in the wing and added an undertray. the difference was immediate. the car was not only 3 seconds a lap faster, it picked up 4 MPH on the front straight. this is at my home track where i literally have thousands of laps and run very consistent times.
a real foil (wing) shape makes lift or downforce, depending on how its mounted, because of its shape. its what the wright brothers figured out back in the day. the air makes a longer trip around one side of the foil than it does the other. this creates the lift without adding a lot of drag. thats the way its supposed to work.
a big spoiler will add downforce and it will help the car over the couple of MPH it cost on the straights.
this is my opinion. i dont work on rockets, i just drive cars on race tracks every day.

Your idea on how an airfoil works is incomplete. It's based on the Conservation of Momentum & the Bernoulli principle. That is, the idea is that two molecules diverting at the leading edge of a wing have to meet at the trailing edge of the wing at the same time (conservation of momentum). It's not the longer trip that causes lift per say, it's the idea that the air going over the longer surface accelerates, and as it accelerates, gives up some of its associated pressure (Bernoulli), resulting in a lower pressure on the curved surface of the wing, compared to the shorter path of the flat surface of the wing.

This theory has since been debunked, or at least not complete in regards to airfoils & lift.


I gotta admit, I have a really tough time buying you just slapped that wing on and picked up 3 seconds (maybe in addition to some slicks), for several reasons, but since this post will be lengthy, I'll limit it to just one observation...


First, you should never, EVER, just be 'pretty sure' when testing mods, for very obvious reasons... Unfortunately, most of the wild claims on this board are based on nothing more than the old butt-dyno (or improper methodology), which is as accurate as ones mind wants/expects the mod to be...

Have you ever wondered why the eBay wing you purchased has the shape it does?

Many racing series have limits on how high (and how far back) the rear wing may be placed, often below the roof line, this causes a problem due to the way the air flows over and around sedans.

A wing with a straight span mounted below the roof line, effectively sees two angles of attack: one from down-washed air coming off the roof, and the other from horizontal flow that comes from along the side of the car or around the C-pillars (there's another issue, but this is the most obvious one).

The problem is, in this condition, the center of the wing will stall well ahead of the the ends of the wing, limiting the amount AoA that can be utilized and the amount of downforce that can be generated.

Raising the center section is an attempt to account for the different flow patterns and effectively give the wing a single AoA, which allows the wing to be run closer to the critical angle without stalling. Obviously that profile is going to be vehicle specific, and even then, a compromise.

Even if your particular wing was designed for a 5th Gen (which it wasn't), your wing appears to be pretty high (near the roof line) for that type of wing to work effectively (maybe that's a saving grace)...

Hey, who knows, maybe you just got real lucky...


Though this CFD of a C6R is showing various pressures, you can kind of visualize the airflow to the wing from over the roof and from around the sides. You can visualize how the raised center section of a wing effectively equalizes the two different air flows (and how this won’t be the same on every car):


Look how low the wing is on this C6R, and how high the center section is raised:


ZL1 1LE. Note contoured span and short mounts (wing below roof line):


GT4 Camaro. Note straight span and tall mounts (wing near roof line, or as high as rules allow):


Anyway, just some things to think about...

If the OP is looking for function over form, AND, can set the car up properly to work with a large rear wing, I’d recommend the wing posted by ZapperZ…

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by Wasted Youth

Your idea on how an airfoil works is incomplete. It's based on the Conservation of Momentum & the Bernoulli principle. That is, the idea is that two molecules diverting at the leading edge of a wing have to meet at the trailing edge of the wing at the same time (conservation of momentum). It's not the longer trip that causes lift per say, it's the idea that the air going over the longer surface accelerates, and as it accelerates, gives up some of its associated pressure (Bernoulli), resulting in a lower pressure on the curved surface of the wing, compared to the shorter path of the flat surface of the wing.

This theory has since been debunked, or at least not complete in regards to airfoils & lift.


I gotta admit, I have a really tough time buying you just slapped that wing on and picked up 3 seconds (maybe in addition to some slicks), for several reasons, but since this post will be lengthy, I'll limit it to just one observation...


First, you should never, EVER, just be 'pretty sure' when testing mods, for very obvious reasons... Unfortunately, most of the wild claims on this board are based on nothing more than the old butt-dyno (or improper methodology), which is as accurate as ones mind wants/expects the mod to be...

Have you ever wondered why the eBay wing you purchased has the shape it does?

Many racing series have limits on how high (and how far back) the rear wing may be placed, often below the roof line, this causes a problem due to the way the air flows over and around sedans.

A wing with a straight span mounted below the roof line, effectively sees two angles of attack: one from down-washed air coming off the roof, and the other from horizontal flow that comes from along the side of the car or around the C-pillars (there's another issue, but this is the most obvious one).

The problem is, in this condition, the center of the wing will stall well ahead of the the ends of the wing, limiting the amount AoA that can be utilized and the amount of downforce that can be generated.

Raising the center section is an attempt to account for the different flow patterns and effectively give the wing a single AoA, which allows the wing to be run closer to the critical angle without stalling. Obviously that profile is going to be vehicle specific, and even then, a compromise.

Even if your particular wing was designed for a 5th Gen (which it wasn't), your wing appears to be pretty high (near the roof line) for that type of wing to work effectively (maybe that's a saving grace)...

Hey, who knows, maybe you just got real lucky...


Though this CFD of a C6R is showing various pressures, you can kind of visualize the airflow to the wing from over the roof and from around the sides. You can visualize how the raised center section of a wing effectively equalizes the two different air flows (and how this won’t be the same on every car):


Look how low the wing is on this C6R, and how high the center section is raised:


ZL1 1LE. Note contoured span and short mounts (wing below roof line):


GT4 Camaro. Note straight span and tall mounts (wing near roof line, or as high as rules allow):


Anyway, just some things to think about...

If the OP is looking for function over form, AND, can set the car up properly to work with a large rear wing, I’d recommend the wing posted by ZapperZ…

Everything you say is technically correct. The one detail that JOHNSONROD mentioned I think you missed is that he also added an undertray when he added the wing. I know for a fact that an undertray on a 5th gen has a dramatic effect on drag which could also explain his pickup of mph.

Scott

[Wasted Youth]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Everything you say is technically correct. The one detail that JOHNSONROD mentioned I think you missed is that he also added an undertray when he added the wing. I know for a fact that an undertray on a 5th gen has a dramatic effect on drag which could also explain his pickup of mph.

Scott

Define dramatic. Would you mind sharing a reputable link to something that quantifies this dramatic affect on a 5th Gen Camaro?

Trust me, I noticed the addition of the belly pan... I've seen numerous papers on the affect of belly pans, and even in the most ideal conditions, the results are hardly dramatic.

I can just about assure you, adding a belly pan isn't going to get back the MPH the wing takes away...

Anyway, I'm going to bow-out here as I don't want to get into a debate on aero, especially with arguments pulled out of thin air. Aero is pretty complicated, and difficult enough to get right with the proper knowledge and tools, let alone blindly adding things without any concept of what you're doing.

Believe what you want to believe, but just know: "The truth is out there." Just gotta be willing to look for it, or better yet, accept it...


Edit: BTW, johnsonrod (love that name), my goal isn't to give you a hard time, and I think it's great you're experimenting, but I've seen some of your other posts on aero, and I think you're doing yourself a disservice by not reading up and understanding some of the basic concepts. The basics aren't Rocket Science, and actually pretty easy to grasp...


Carry on... And happy-modding!!!

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by Wasted Youth

Define dramatic. Would you mind sharing a reputable link to something that quantifies this dramatic affect on a 5th Gen Camaro?

Trust me, I noticed the addition of the belly pan... I've seen numerous papers on the affect of belly pans, and even in the most ideal conditions, the results are hardly dramatic.

I can just about assure you, adding a belly pan isn't going to get back the MPH the wing takes away...

Anyway, I'm going to bow-out here as I don't want to get into a debate on aero, especially with arguments pulled out of thin air. Aero is pretty complicated, and difficult enough to get right with the proper knowledge and tools, let alone blindly adding things without any concept of what you're doing.

Believe what you want to believe, but just know: "The truth is out there." Just gotta be willing to look for it...

I don't know if it's intentional but you are sounding like you have come to the conclusion that I am just another schmuck that talks big on the internet and throws parts at a car without any understanding of what they actually do. It's common, I'm not faulting you and I get it but something you may or may not be conscious of.

That said, I have done several hundred laps around two different tracks with my SS over the last 3 years and made changes to the car based on actual telemetry that I collect on the car. These are conclusions that I have come up with based on actual data pulled from the car's ECU, GPS and a dedicated accelerometer from a Samsung Galaxy phone that I yanked the SIM card out of.

I then take the raw CSV files, import them into Microsoft PowerBI to create dashboards so that I can go over the data and see where improvements were really seen vs. how it felt. Finally, I take the data, import it into RaceRender and create telemetry overlays on my videos that I have spent countless hours pouring over every little frame. If you would like my raw, data, I'll be happy to supply it to you. My videos are on YouTube with telemetry and you can see for yourself.

Adding a front-only belly pan and a large, aluminum hood vent I was able to pick up 5mph (max) on the straight at The Ridge Motorsports park. I was also able to average a gain of .08 lateral Gs on the corners above 80mph and I shaved off 6 seconds from my previous, best lap time due to not having to lift where I used to. Since I made no additional mods to the car since my last two outings, I was starting from a good baseline. I would call my results dramatic but perhaps you do not and that's fine.

I have been building my own RC airplanes for nearly 30 years now even designing my own wings and making my own modifications so while I don't consider myself an expert, I am no novice in the realm of aerodynamics.

I have been racing cars and bikes off and on for 20 years and I know I have much to learn. I still learn from people every day around here as well as on the track and I do so without talking down to people or I wouldn't be very well liked everywhere I go.

Scott

[JOHNSONROD]

what we could do to make a shit ton of money would be to buy an F1 car, remove all those stupid wings and slap a bunch of spoilers on em. then we could put vettel and hammy on the trailer. lighten up lol. if its that important, your right, the spoiler is better. now bring your spoiler over and show me how fast ya are. let me guess, you only talk fast, not drive fast.

[Wasted Youth]

Scott, you didn't mention the hood vent...

I absolutely didn't mean to discount you, it's just that I see unfounded blanket assumptions posted as fact all the time, and I just assumed yours was another one...

There's nothing I hate more than someone blindly stating something as fact (usually something they just assume, or heard), and have no, nor can provide a basis for, presenting this, fact.

Sounds like you're doing things right, and good for you for finding gains, but usually there's always something left out (like the hood vent), or some other missing piece that better explain the results.


Learning is what it's all about!!! And if this brain-dead chimp can learn the basics, anyone can...

I'm not going to bore you with my background, as that doesn't always tell the story. I learned a long time ago: it's not what you know, it's how you apply what you know (I have GREAT story to make this point if interested)... There are many, MANY people, MUCH smarter than me, but I know I can build a Pro-Touring car that would be tough to beat (in the right hands anyway), and I know this because I've taken a good look at what other people are doing, or more importantly, 'not' doing... My greatest strength is being able to not fixate on the forest... If you can't see the trees, your doomed to be no better than the next guy...

One day I hope to be able to afford to build that car (or find some rich guy that wants to build it)... The part I look the most forward to, in addition to all the fab required, is collecting all the data in order to get the concepts to work... That, to me, is good times!!!


johnsonrod, if you honestly think what you're doing is comparable to what is done in F1, I feel sorry for you... I can state with a high degree of confidence, F1 cars don't have generic eBay wings arbitrarily placed on their cars...

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by JOHNSONROD

what we could do to make a shit ton of money would be to buy an F1 car, remove all those stupid wings and slap a bunch of spoilers on em. then we could put vettel and hammy on the trailer. lighten up lol. if its that important, your right, the spoiler is better. now bring your spoiler over and show me how fast ya are. let me guess, you only talk fast, not drive fast.

[1Coopgt]

Originally Posted by Wasted Youth

Quotes from the link you apparently didn't read:

"...a properly-designed spoiler can improve the drag coefficient of the vehicle even though it looks like a wall. That reduces drag and improves efficiency."

"Wings are airfoils designed to directly deflect air upwards and thus push the rear of the vehicle down. They generally add quite a bit of drag."

"Spoilers are barricades to undesirable flows, and thus are able to reshape airflow streams around the vehicle. This can help keep the rear of the vehicle down and decrease drag by changing the effective vehicle shape."


Basic stuff... And why I asked... Stating that spoilers create a lot of drag, and wings don't, couldn't be further from the truth...

Actually I did read it . I understood it perfectly . I posted it because it backed up what you said. Take the attitude some where else .

[JOHNSONROD]

yeah and your accomplishments are so huge you cant mention them lol. like i said bro, if its that important, you win. now come show me what you can do not how you can get crap off the internet and re post it.

[Aliveguy5]

Some people really don't get it. This is the same guy in another post asking how to increase his grip... SMDH! Sounds like the driver need a brain mod.

Originally Posted by Zl1dad

I thought these were Camaros and not Honda's.

[KaBoom1701]

What did I miss?

[hammdo]

I’m bumping this as I found the discussion very interesting.

Here is a video from MIT (yes that one) that has some fascinating demos and results...



Sorry for the revival...but didn’t want to start a new thread (yes, I'm a pilot too ;o)...

-Don