Camaro team's response to concern about Transmission Output Shaft Failure

[carfansince73]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Are we still discussing this? This is why we have warranties, people! If something breaks, they fix it. We think that this part could brake on a very small number of cars under no particular circumstances. Even racing your Camaro will not cause this part to break. If it does break, then you're covered just like any other part on the car.

For some people like me, we aren't questioning whether GM will replace the broken tranny. It's when the car is modified and then it breaks. Many here have lots of mods without their transmission output shafts breaking. So it's clear the "good" ones can take some serious power. If there are two supercharged Camaros modded exactly the same racing each other at a track and one breaks their output shaft, the broken one probably was one of the unlucky ones to get a bad shaft. I bet if that person was you, you might not be so quick to ask if we are still discussing this. You'd want to get the tranny replaced if the output shaft was broken regardless of the fact the car was supercharged.

I hope I don't have a bad one. If I do, I hope there is a dealer in town that will be on my side.

[Coldpants]

Originally Posted by Supermans

How could we find out what the TREAD's office (people in charge of enforcing the regulation) official position on this issue since every single problem had to have been reported to them if what you believe is true? It would have to be public record as in "freedom of information" act type of records? Thanks GTHAVIT for your research, this interests me if they did get all the info from GM and whether or not it is or isn't a safety issue in their minds yet, and if it isn't, how many would have to occur before they do see it an issue for example Or as in the Ford case, did people have to get hurt before it became an issue? Perhaps someone familiar with TREAD can shed some insight on this..

First thank you for the work in getting this to GM's attention. I just wanted to point something out. You are focusing on the half the equation. Whether of not it is a safety issue the cost of rectifying the issues vs. the percentage of failures that result in injury or fatality and there is some government formula to determine what that is worth. Also GM (or any company) would look at other things that could increase the cost of a major failing. Only if the cost of the repair is lower than the total cost of leaving the problem alone will the company act. Government agencies are not strictly beholden to this formula but the are influenced by it as evidenced by the FAA's refusal to adopt the practice of filling empty plane tanks with nitrogen to prevent another accident like TWA-800 or that plane in Hong Kong.

My point is it seems that GM has determined that the cost of repair is higher than the cost of allowing a possible weak part to fail and apparently for now no government agency disagrees with them and until that changes it is very unlikely that GM's response to the situation will change. That is not to say there is nothing that can be done PR can weigh heavily on the repair/leave equation as evidenced by the response we got on this forum which seems to try to calm customer fears. Whether its the right course of action or not we will see.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

I have no Idea. Tread came into being after the Ford issue to prevent that from happening again. My guess is GM is reporting each and every warranty claim as well as what they are doing to keep it from becoming a safety concern. And Tread can say you are doing the right thing or you aren't doing enough...

Out side of that I have no idea how this works other than car manufacturers are required to report to them the findings and the preventative steps.

So your comment that it isn't important until someone is injured is again misplaced. Tread doesn't intervene after someone is hurt. They regulate and enforce so that no one ever gets hurt. As I understand it. So if someone were to get hurt as part a a warranty trend, then both Tread and the Car manufacturer failed.

Just my opinion...

GTAHAVIT, In my post I was just saying there has to be some point (if the same issue keeps on occurring) when it does become a concern to the TREAD dept. Either a number is reached in amount of issues or perhaps an accident. I was just speculating as to how they come up with a way of determining when to take action. I am not trying to stir anything up here, I am just curious that's all as to how the process works as it relates to the Camaro. And like you said, we don't know for sure this was taking place or done on GM's part at all in following TREAD (however they should have since its the law). It is all speculation at this point to begin with.

[superstockcam]

I am very concerned about this every time I power shift, I beat my drivetrain with an M-22 in it for years and never ever thought about it. Oh well I suppose someone will "or did" build a stronger unit to drop in.
________
Lesbian Webcams

[boxmonkeyracing]

wow some people can't seem to grasp that if you rag on something hard enough it just might break. and they make a huge deal out of it even after it's been explained to them by the experts. and to the person that said GM should just replace them no matter if the car is out of warranty and no questions. that's a crock and you know it. why would you if you made something support a replacement like this even if it is beatin on and abused?

[Coldpants]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

wow some people can't seem to grasp that if you rag on something hard enough it just might break. and they make a huge deal out of it even after it's been explained to them by the experts. and to the person that said GM should just replace them no matter if the car is out of warranty and no questions. that's a crock and you know it. why would you if you made something support a replacement like this even if it is beatin on and abused?

Tail shaft is not breaking under abuse, normal driving and launch control.all of them

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Coldpants

Tail shaft is not breaking under abuse, normal driving and launch control.all of them

how many launch control launches? how hard are you shifting? are you power shifting? and from what I've read only a couple have broken under normal driving use, and no one has officially come out and said how many have broken, and under what conditions. per what was told about the situations, and as there aren't witnesses besides the owner who knows how it was really treated. and you best be damn straight that I would lie through my teeth if it came between me replacing the transmission or someone else. so please don't give me the BS about that.

[Coldpants]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

how many launch control launches? how hard are you shifting? are you power shifting? and from what I've read only a couple have broken under normal driving use, and no one has officially come out and said how many have broken, and under what conditions. per what was told about the situations, and as there aren't witnesses besides the owner who knows how it was really treated. and you best be damn straight that I would lie through my teeth if it came between me replacing the transmission or someone else. so please don't give me the BS about that.

More than a few are breaking on first Launch and the number of times you use Launch control does not matter in the section where they tell you to use it no where does it say only use x number of times. None seem to be breaking after the car is moving. Even GM and Tremac admit to a problem http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...blem-is-fixed/. http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...-the-problemSo what you saying is that GM should not fix something it admits is a problem? Even GM is not saying that.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Coldpants

More than a few are breaking on first Launch and the number of times you use Launch control does not matter in the section where they tell you to use it no where does it say only use x number of times. None seem to be breaking after the car is moving. Even GM and Tremac admit to a problem http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...blem-is-fixed/. http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...-the-problemSo what you saying is that GM should not fix something it admits is a problem? Even GM is not saying that.

what I'm saying is if it's been abused which is in the warranty terms the warranty (which would include replacement) is void. and with the statement given out by gm they seem to believe there really isn't an issue. guess it's all in how you read the statement. like I said all you have are stories from the people. first launch 10th launch. . .100th. . .

Also the launch mode arguement. check out the GT-R's launch control issues. lets see it was destroying transmissions. and if they had used the launch control more then like 5 times in a short amount of time (recorded on the computer) they were voiding warranty claims.

I'm not calling all the owners liars but I can guarantee you at least one of them has lied about how he launched the car or treated it. either way the point is they make an announcement and people aren't happy with it unless they replace a perfectly good part.

[Coldpants]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

what I'm saying is if it's been abused which is in the warranty terms the warranty (which would include replacement) is void. and with the statement given out by gm they seem to believe there really isn't an issue. guess it's all in how you read the statement. like I said all you have are stories from the people. first launch 10th launch. . .100th. . .

Also the launch mode arguement. check out the GT-R's launch control issues. lets see it was destroying transmissions. and if they had used the launch control more then like 5 times in a short amount of time (recorded on the computer) they were voiding warranty claims.

I'm not calling all the owners liars but I can guarantee you at least one of them has lied about how he launched the car or treated it. either way the point is they make an announcement and people aren't happy with it unless they replace a perfectly good part.

As far as the GT-R goes if it does not state anywhere in the Manuel you can only use Launch control x times in y minutes Voiding a warranty could be successfully fought, assuming you did not need your car right away.

I am not saying no one is lying about the circumstances of the breakage, but that's a moot point GM has admitted that they, or their supplier rather, made an error and that error has made the effected transmissions weaker than standard. There is no way for them to prove that any transmission that fails is because of use and not the flaw (as long as the fail point is consistent with the known issue). Now whether they wanna fix the problem proactively or after the fact is up to them. They seem to think it is not cost effective to go with the first option and where the PR fallout ends up will determine whether they are right. The practice of Stonewalling the public and hoping the problem would go away has proven to be a stupid strategy as that has made the public fear worse not better. I am not saying that replacing all the transmissions is the answer, but at very least more openness and honesty at the start would most likely seen the problem vanish from the public radar long ago. Moving forward if they want this issue forgotten and cars sold they are going to have to give up more information about what they think the problem is or what they did to find out or at least some probabilities of encountering a failing part. Giving up a Vin range would help too as if would limit worry to that vin range and stop effecting future sales of camaros as I am sure there are some people on the fence afraid to buy a car because of the lack of reassurance from GM.

[TAG UR IT]

Originally Posted by ITMerc

While the 'public' release of info is certainly appreciated what I saw was a pretty standard industry reply to a potential warranty problem that seems to have limited safety implications. He admitted they saw a spike in reported failures, they looked into it and basically figured out, in my opinion, that it would cost them more money to issue a recall and FOR SURE have to spend a pile of cash fixing cars that may or may not ever actually break than the much smaller amount of money it MIGHT cost them to just sit on their hands and wait to fix the ones that actually do break. Standard cost/benefit risk analysis.

From reading the other threads it seems like a subcontractor had a parts run (or several in a given period of time) that resulted in shafts that fail at a higher rate than expected. GM most likely identified the affected VIN range and has gotten the manufacturing issue corrected with the subcontractor, but has also decided that its not cost effective to issue a recall and instead is willing to roll the dice and deal with them if they do fail on a case by case basis. Not bashing anyone here! Its pretty standard practice in almost ALL industries to do this kind of cost/benefit risk analysis.

Would it be nice to know if your car falls in the affected VIN range, SURE. But releasing that info would fan the fires probably causing the affected owners to demand a pre-emptive part replacement thereby costing GM more money (a defacto recall) than waiting for what would surely be a much smaller number of actual failures.

To me it simply means that IF my car experiences a shaft failure I have a pretty strong case to convince GM to fix it regardless of how the car was being driven. Its a 'Muscle Car'', drive it to enjoy it and as long as you do so with the respect due any piece of machinery you want to continue operating properly for its expected lifetime then you likely won't have any problems. If you DO have a problem, then take it to the dealership and get it fixed. If its a warranty issue then its on them, if NOT then its on you.

Do I LIKE the answer they gave... Not really. Do I UNDERSTAND it...I like to think so. Heh!

Now that's a pretty damn good post. Great job.

Originally Posted by Hicompression

I bust it...GM's gonna give me a new one. End of story.

Common sense prevails! This sums it up better than any other post.

[camaro5]

I've researched this further and found that wheel hop can break a good output shaft.

Avoid wheel hop. It may not break exactly when perceivable wheel hop occurs.

These look like a great investment:

Stabilize the caster settings and minimize wheelhop in your 5th Gen Camaro with a set of Trailing Arms from BMR Fabrication.

Superior to the factory stamped steel arms, these Trailing Arms are constructed from 1" x 2" rectangular steel and 3/16" CNC laser cut and CNC formed steel plates.

The BMR Trailing Arms (TCA026) utilize fully-fluted, greaseable, low-deflection polyurethane bushings rather than the poorly supported rubber bushings of the factory design.

Installation time is only 1 hour. Available in black hammertone or red powdercoat

$139.95



http://www.bmrfabrication.com/F5.htm

[UCF w00t]

boxmonkey...

Why would someone lie on here AFTER the transmission is already replaced? And how much crap has Nissan taken for the GT-R's transmission troubles? GM should NOT follow anywhere near their footsteps and thankfully they're doing the right thing and fixing them.

Please, just stop. It's over.

[Pushing_Tin]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/04/g...k-on-enthusia/