Camaro Z28 rumors dampened by Bob Lutz, G8 will (update: NOT) survive

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Rogue Leader

Very correct however its possible to duplicate both conditions, its not as stark of a contrast in many cases.

Firstly many of GMs numbers are completely arbitrary, due to the "corvette must be faster" rule, cars have been underrated for years and sometimes still are (look at the 89 TTA rated at 245hp, yet a dead stock one put down 300 TO THE WHEELS). In the late 60's thay basically made numbers up in some cases (such as the 260 HP rating of the Z28).

However at that time engines were rated at the flywheel with no accessories, just headers no exhaust, and their carbs tuned up, running even a little rich. This is brake horsepower or gross horsepower. Many manufacturers (in the US) even list their vehicles HP ratings today incorrectly as bhp, when in reality they are using the 2005 SAE certified horsepower number. In 1972 they started using net horsepower which is still at the crank but with all the standard accessories installed, as well as factory style exhaust. This was used all the way through 2006. in 2005 the SAE certified hp number came into account which is basically the same as net HP, however it has certain requirements such as using a specific machine and procedure, having an SAE observer during the tests, and running the engine only on its required fuel (ex the LS3 is tested with 91 octane, a basic ecotec is run with 87 octane). This certification helped some engines but hurt others, usually within a 20 hp range.

Now that goes to explain factory numbers but lets take the theoretical 375-400hp rating of the DZ 302 with the crossram. While I don't know the situation with which it was tested, I can say its likely that the engine had everying but the exhaust installed when it was run on the dyno, if it was being done in someones shop. Why bother jacking the numbers if you know you can't back it up.

What this also means is that the Camaro which is SAE certified is making 426 HP at the crank with everything installed... Meaning that without the exhaust on a dyno machine it certainly would make more HP at the crank than the DZ 302, its also 1.6 liters bigger. As well the 302 was probably run without an A/C compressor, so if you yanked that off the LS3 you would be generating far more HP than the DZ 302.

Good points..... I just know for as long as I could remember, even as a little kid, kind of laughing at old cars when they would say "oh, man, that '67 Plymouth has 380 hp" when, even as a kid after riding in one and telling the person driving to floor it, I knew there was no way the car had the kind of power that was advertised.

The govt. and car companies have finally come to a decent way of puting a number on "seat of pants feel".

[Brokinarrow]

hmm, well the G8 may be dead for now, I would put good money down to say that once the economy gets back on its feet we'll see it live again. Or at least something similar.

[radz28]

Though I'd like to pretent there were never implications/statements that the Z28 is going to be something other than what's been widely speculated, let's stay on topic. I love all the old school talk, but please try to remain on topic. I know I went off a little too, and I'm sorry; let's get back on topic though.

Start another thread in the 1st Gen. Section if you like

Very Respectfully...

[stovt001]

So back on topic then, the only thing that has been thrown out of possibility according to the OP is an LSA-powered Z28 right? Powerful 4 and 6 cylinder engines were mentioned as the future emphasis of performance, but it doesn't say the Camaro will be getting a 4 cylinder or other 6 cylinder engine. It certainly doesn't say the Z28 will be getting such an engine. With news articles like this, it is so easy for a writer to put two separate points together and make them look related when they in fact are unrelated.

[Legend]

Let me ask some dealers a question since a dealer I stopped by today had some info on the Z28...well, what he said he knew...

...he said a notice was given to dealers a week or so ago and talked about the Z28 mid to next year being produced (Summer 2010) as a 2011 model. Said it was 550 hp and the tag line was something about "rekindle the Z28" or something along those lines.

I told him last I heard it wasn't official they were producing it but no one had really said one way or the other.

Didn't go into specifics about the engine, whether N/A or FI, but did say it was 550 plus hp and then the tag line of "rekindle". No price either but said it was over the Z06 hp and would imagine it would cost the same if not more ($75K range).

Finally, he said each dealer would get only 2 and that was it for production? I ask him if I could order and he said to hold off for now but he'd let me know when.

So...any other dealers see this "memo"?

[radz28]

Originally Posted by stovt001

So back on topic then, the only thing that has been thrown out of possibility according to the OP is an LSA-powered Z28 right? Powerful 4 and 6 cylinder engines were mentioned as the future emphasis of performance, but it doesn't say the Camaro will be getting a 4 cylinder or other 6 cylinder engine. It certainly doesn't say the Z28 will be getting such an engine. With news articles like this, it is so easy for a writer to put two separate points together and make them look related when they in fact are unrelated.

See - that's exactly what I've been thinking/hoping; just taken a little out of context. Of course, I can easily see that I would want to interperate it the way you just said it, and that it's admittedly biased but it can go both ways. I just didn't read it as a direct statement Oh the confusion. Just tell us already

Originally Posted by I am Legend

Let me ask some dealers a question since a dealer I stopped by today had some info on the Z28...well, what he said he knew...

...he said a notice was given to dealers a week or so ago and talked about the Z28 mid to next year being produced (Summer 2010) as a 2011 model. Said it was 550 hp and the tag line was something about "rekindle the Z28" or something along those lines.

I told him last I heard it wasn't official they were producing it but no one had really said one way or the other.

Didn't go into specifics about the engine, whether N/A or FI, but did say it was 550 plus hp and then the tag line of "rekindle". No price either but said it was over the Z06 hp and would imagine it would cost the same if not more ($75K range).

Finally, he said each dealer would get only 2 and that was it for production? I ask him if I could order and he said to hold off for now but he'd let me know when.

So...any other dealers see this "memo"?

I can't see pricing this car over a Z06 being practical at ALL If you ask me, there are only two sorts of people who would by a Camaro at that price when there are faster (dare I say "better") Corvettes for less: a person with the money who just wants this car for bragging rights; a person who's a true diehard fan who doesn't care that there are 'Vettes that are cheaper/faster. As much as I'm praying for this car, I'm sure, even if I could afford anything CLOSE to $70K, that I wouldn't spend near that much money. As has been pointed out already - it'd be way less $$$ to build this car one's self; the foundation is already there. If this has any truth, this will definately hurt sales of a Z28 and limit availability to the really wealthy.

That would be too bad I'd still want it to be made, but not happy I couldn't afford one. And yes - I need 550+ horsepower

[flht99b]

I owned a 1969 Z28 Camaro with the stock, single carb "DZ" 302 and the optional 4.10 gear. A buddy owned a 1969 Z28 Camaro with the stock, single carb "DZ" 302 and the stock 3.73 gear. There is absolutely no way either one of those 2 - '69 Z28's could come close to the acceleration that my 2010 2SS/RS LS3 6spd manual has. I don't know where the 500hp fantasy came from for the DZ 302. In all honesty, until the 302 hit 4K rpm, it was slow, especially with 3.73 gears and only a little better with 4.10's. Big cam, big Holley carb, big valves and short 3" crank stroke made for great high rpm HP but was lousy for low end torque. It's bigger brother the 11.1 compression LT-1 from 1969 ( Corvette ) and 1970 ( Corvette and Camaro ) was a strong runner. A blueprinted LT-1 with 5.13 gears in another '69 Camaro I had ran 11:50's in the quarter in 1978-79 but was marginally streetable.

[69Bird]

First let me give Rouge Leader some credit for touching on this point to begin with. Let’s go back to 1986. The V-8 line was being decimated by a little turbo called the Buick 3.8. Turbo Buick's can run 10's with slicks and still drive home. Those cars are not light. They were not super advanced, just good combos. NO they are not typical, but it can be done that is my only point. Today’s technology is way ahead so don’t write off smaller displacement just because. Chevy E'ffed up by placing 4 cylinders in Camaro's in the 80's no question but that was then.

[BDA]

Originally Posted by I am Legend

Let me ask some dealers a question since a dealer I stopped by today had some info on the Z28...well, what he said he knew...

...he said a notice was given to dealers a week or so ago and talked about the Z28 mid to next year being produced (Summer 2010) as a 2011 model. Said it was 550 hp and the tag line was something about "rekindle the Z28" or something along those lines.

I told him last I heard it wasn't official they were producing it but no one had really said one way or the other.

Didn't go into specifics about the engine, whether N/A or FI, but did say it was 550 plus hp and then the tag line of "rekindle". No price either but said it was over the Z06 hp and would imagine it would cost the same if not more ($75K range).

Finally, he said each dealer would get only 2 and that was it for production? I ask him if I could order and he said to hold off for now but he'd let me know when.

So...any other dealers see this "memo"?

My dealer said - NO

No new models announced till march 2011

Anyone else?

[O2BQIK]

Gotta laugh at folks taking the dealer's word as gospel