paint chip problems

[bowtie628]

its not the water based base coat. its the lack of clear.. i paint cars for a living

you wanna solve this issue then have the whole car wet sanded and have a painter lay on more layers of clear.

[rlem00]

Originally Posted by bowtie628

guys i paint for a living.. its not the new water based paint or the prep work because alot of shops are painting with it now. its the lack of clear coat that GM is using on there cars now. they cheap out real bad with the clear coat and the fact that they arent using enough to protect the paint.. BMW and other car companys are using water based also but they dont slack on the clear like GM does..

GM ****ed up on this one, but they will never admit it.. mitsubishi also messed up with there lancers and evos because on the rear of the new evo and lancer it sticks out like the camaro rear quarter.. do a search, you will they have the same issues with there paint.. in order to protect the paint well, you must lay on a good amount of clear coat.. this is something GM and some other car companys dont do now so they can save some money.

I would like to make a couple of comments to this. I spent about 7 years with the OEM's dealing with coatings application, my last two assignments were in Oshawa and LDT. I have worked for a powder manufacturer as a SME for GM on powder coating application, from there I went to work in QA andR&D for a coating company doing OEM validations. Over my years with the OEM's I had the opportunity to meet some very knowledgeable people in coatings and am pretty sure some of the stuff I did in those plants is still being used today.

Rock chips can be caused by several issues the following are some of the most common failure modes; excessive film thickness (thicker is not always better, including the clear coat, the thicker the coating is you get leverage allowing the coating to fracture and chip off easier), brittle coating, poor inter or intra coat adhesion (basically either a individual coating is poor or the system itself is poorly designed) A great way to prevent rock chips is to not tail gate and not drive on freshly salted roads.

As far as slacking on the coatings, it's been a few years but I am not aware of any water born clear coats being widely used by any of the OEM's, could be wrong I've been out of the game for a few years. The last I talked to anyone about water born clears they just did not have the durability there yet. The majority of OEM's are going to water borne base coats due to VOC requirements. I'm partial to powder and know that BMW is one of the leading users of powder clear coats over liquids (I know because I have worked with several of the clears they are using)

I would like to close by asking who has actually gone out and put a film gauge on the panels to see what the total film thickness is? I can but have not because I don't really care. They have some pretty good QA checks in Oshawa for coating inspection (I know because I spent about 3 years up there helping train them on their new paint shop, btw this was about 3 years before the first production camaro was built.

As far as the color match that I read about, I have the following to add...if you expect a plastic to exactly match a metal you are living a pipe dream. I can't remember the last time I saw a car roll off a factory line that I could not pick the coating apart on. You want to hear an interesting fight go to lunch with a plant guy, the fascia supplier and the coating supplier, been there and the plant guy is ALWAYS screaming at them both because the color NEVER matches on any of the plastic. The sad thing is they are looking at it on a level that few do.

bottom line they are nice cars, this coming from someone who swore they were not going to buy another GM car after the buy out. So that's my soap box, not really wanting to flame anyone just had to unload that at one time. Now go out there, get in your car and go turn some heads cuz to quote a supervisor I once knew "you'll never see that going 80 on the highway"

[nak3dsnake]

Guys, I don't think the issue is the paint so much as our roads are getting crappier.

[dmginc]

Originally Posted by nak3dsnake

Guys, I don't think the issue is the paint so much as our roads are getting crappier.

problem with that is that my older cars do not suffer this sort of problem. my 2001 Jeep has 113k on the odo and has very few scratches on it, no chips at all. recently gave my brother in-law my 99 Civic, it had some small scratches but no chips. I have had lots of cars with over 100k on the odo that did not look as bad as my 2011 HHR does right now or as bad as some members Camaros look right now. if all my cars were like my HHR then I would very much agree it is the roads but i honestly feel there is an issue with the paint they are using,either it is just crap or was just applied to thin that anything that touches the car will take the paint down to the primer.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by rlem00

I would like to make a couple of comments to this. I spent about 7 years with the OEM's dealing with coatings application, my last two assignments were in Oshawa and LDT. I have worked for a powder manufacturer as a SME for GM on powder coating application, from there I went to work in QA andR&D for a coating company doing OEM validations. Over my years with the OEM's I had the opportunity to meet some very knowledgeable people in coatings and am pretty sure some of the stuff I did in those plants is still being used today.

Rock chips can be caused by several issues the following are some of the most common failure modes; excessive film thickness (thicker is not always better, including the clear coat, the thicker the coating is you get leverage allowing the coating to fracture and chip off easier), brittle coating, poor inter or intra coat adhesion (basically either a individual coating is poor or the system itself is poorly designed) A great way to prevent rock chips is to not tail gate and not drive on freshly salted roads.

As far as slacking on the coatings, it's been a few years but I am not aware of any water born clear coats being widely used by any of the OEM's, could be wrong I've been out of the game for a few years. The last I talked to anyone about water born clears they just did not have the durability there yet. The majority of OEM's are going to water borne base coats due to VOC requirements. I'm partial to powder and know that BMW is one of the leading users of powder clear coats over liquids (I know because I have worked with several of the clears they are using)

I would like to close by asking who has actually gone out and put a film gauge on the panels to see what the total film thickness is? I can but have not because I don't really care. They have some pretty good QA checks in Oshawa for coating inspection (I know because I spent about 3 years up there helping train them on their new paint shop, btw this was about 3 years before the first production camaro was built.

As far as the color match that I read about, I have the following to add...if you expect a plastic to exactly match a metal you are living a pipe dream. I can't remember the last time I saw a car roll off a factory line that I could not pick the coating apart on. You want to hear an interesting fight go to lunch with a plant guy, the fascia supplier and the coating supplier, been there and the plant guy is ALWAYS screaming at them both because the color NEVER matches on any of the plastic. The sad thing is they are looking at it on a level that few do.

bottom line they are nice cars, this coming from someone who swore they were not going to buy another GM car after the buy out. So that's my soap box, not really wanting to flame anyone just had to unload that at one time. Now go out there, get in your car and go turn some heads cuz to quote a supervisor I once knew "you'll never see that going 80 on the highway"

Thank you for the insight! You are correct that Oshawa is not using water based clear coat, only the color coat is water based.

Question for you - how much better is the powder based clear coat?

[mad@gm]

Originally Posted by dmginc

problem with that is that my older cars do not suffer this sort of problem. my 2001 Jeep has 113k on the odo and has very few scratches on it, no chips at all. recently gave my brother in-law my 99 Civic, it had some small scratches but no chips. I have had lots of cars with over 100k on the odo that did not look as bad as my 2011 HHR does right now or as bad as some members Camaros look right now. if all my cars were like my HHR then I would very much agree it is the roads but i honestly feel there is an issue with the paint they are using,either it is just crap or was just applied to thin that anything that touches the car will take the paint down to the primer.

I agree, my 01 grand am paint is still great, and same with a 04 trail blazer that I have, both over 100K, neither have had any major mechanical or paint issues like my camaro did as well, so we all know a good car can be built, the real question is why are companies not, I spent more on my former pos than my parents did building their first house on a large piece of land, only to have regret.

[Big Daddy Kane]

Originally Posted by rlem00

I would like to make a couple of comments to this. I spent about 7 years with the OEM's dealing with coatings application, my last two assignments were in Oshawa and LDT. I have worked for a powder manufacturer as a SME for GM on powder coating application, from there I went to work in QA andR&D for a coating company doing OEM validations. Over my years with the OEM's I had the opportunity to meet some very knowledgeable people in coatings and am pretty sure some of the stuff I did in those plants is still being used today.

Rock chips can be caused by several issues the following are some of the most common failure modes; excessive film thickness (thicker is not always better, including the clear coat, the thicker the coating is you get leverage allowing the coating to fracture and chip off easier), brittle coating, poor inter or intra coat adhesion (basically either a individual coating is poor or the system itself is poorly designed) A great way to prevent rock chips is to not tail gate and not drive on freshly salted roads.

As far as slacking on the coatings, it's been a few years but I am not aware of any water born clear coats being widely used by any of the OEM's, could be wrong I've been out of the game for a few years. The last I talked to anyone about water born clears they just did not have the durability there yet. The majority of OEM's are going to water borne base coats due to VOC requirements. I'm partial to powder and know that BMW is one of the leading users of powder clear coats over liquids (I know because I have worked with several of the clears they are using)

I would like to close by asking who has actually gone out and put a film gauge on the panels to see what the total film thickness is? I can but have not because I don't really care. They have some pretty good QA checks in Oshawa for coating inspection (I know because I spent about 3 years up there helping train them on their new paint shop, btw this was about 3 years before the first production camaro was built.

As far as the color match that I read about, I have the following to add...if you expect a plastic to exactly match a metal you are living a pipe dream. I can't remember the last time I saw a car roll off a factory line that I could not pick the coating apart on. You want to hear an interesting fight go to lunch with a plant guy, the fascia supplier and the coating supplier, been there and the plant guy is ALWAYS screaming at them both because the color NEVER matches on any of the plastic. The sad thing is they are looking at it on a level that few do.

bottom line they are nice cars, this coming from someone who swore they were not going to buy another GM car after the buy out. So that's my soap box, not really wanting to flame anyone just had to unload that at one time. Now go out there, get in your car and go turn some heads cuz to quote a supervisor I once knew "you'll never see that going 80 on the highway"

I agree with this! I've been working in the collision industry for 14 years now. Our shop uses Glasurit water borne paint. The color coats are water borne, not the clear. And too much clear can cause easy chipping as well. I always tell people that you don't want too much clear, cause it will chip.

I had a friend, not a customer, complaining about the bumpers on his new challenger, how they don't match the car. I told him to pay attention to other cars. Alot, not all, but a lot of cars have bumpers that do not match from the factory!

[Nails]

Originally Posted by nak3dsnake

Guys, I don't think the issue is the paint so much as our roads are getting crappier.

I'm at about 1,800 miles. I only drive on sunny days and never in rain. It sat all winter and has never seen salt. I have three very small chips in random spots. I'm really worried the paint isn't going to last very long and continue to chip away. The paint looks super thin where the chips are. My Saturn has 150,000 miles and is driven daily and in blizzards and has been blasted passing salt trucks and I have about 5 chips total. That being said, I googled paint chipping and nearly every car made now appears to be having the same problems. Toyota and Infiniti in particular have forums discussing this very same problem.

[heRS]

I am on the telephone with Brent, an American on US soil with GM customer service as I type. He tells me that information on an internet forum can be BS. So all you guys that are having paint chip issues do not exist to GM unless you actually CALL them and tell them you're having a problem with the paint.
Understand that your first call will end up at a call center in ARGENTINA. They do nothing but stand up for GM via a scripted response. Tell this person you wish to speak with someone on US soil. It takes longer but you don't get the scripted responses from the people on US soil.
Jeff Morris aka ChevroletCustomerSvc, you could be anyone, I was told. My Customer Service Representative Brent has never heard of Scott Settlemire. I directed Brent to this forum so he could become more familiar with the Cult Phenomenon that is the G5 Camaro owner. In his eyes, you are all a bunch of nobodies whose opinions do not matter.
In order for your voice to be heard, your complaint about the paint issues to recognized as a valid issue, you must call GM and lodge your complaint. Take the time to do it, just don't waste time talking to the folks in Argentina. Stop by your dealership and show the service manager your gills. See if there's a used Camaro on the lot to compare, show them it's not just you. Get them to make a note on it on your account, then call GM.
The number to call is 1-800-222-1020. Ask to be transferred to a call center in the USA.

[Chevrolet Customer Svc]

To be honest there are many in the Customer Assistance team that do no know who we are but I would just like to reiterate that my coworkers and I (who have recently made themselves known for the most part) do work for General Motors in the Social Media/Customer Service department. In addition to calling Customer Assistance you can direct message me your information and I can get you setup with them as well and get your issues documented as well. Also, that is the correct number that heRS posted above if you would like to call them. I hope this helps to clear up any possible questions!

Jeff Morris, Chevrolet Customer Service

[montreal2010yellow]

Originally Posted by heRS

I am on the telephone with Brent, an American on US soil with GM customer service as I type. He tells me that information on an internet forum can be BS. So all you guys that are having paint chip issues do not exist to GM unless you actually CALL them and tell them you're having a problem with the paint.
Understand that your first call will end up at a call center in ARGENTINA. They do nothing but stand up for GM via a scripted response. Tell this person you wish to speak with someone on US soil. It takes longer but you don't get the scripted responses from the people on US soil.
Jeff Morris aka ChevroletCustomerSvc, you could be anyone, I was told. My Customer Service Representative Brent has never heard of Scott Settlemire. I directed Brent to this forum so he could become more familiar with the Cult Phenomenon that is the G5 Camaro owner. In his eyes, you are all a bunch of nobodies whose opinions do not matter.
In order for your voice to be heard, your complaint about the paint issues to recognized as a valid issue, you must call GM and lodge your complaint. Take the time to do it, just don't waste time talking to the folks in Argentina. Stop by your dealership and show the service manager your gills. See if there's a used Camaro on the lot to compare, show them it's not just you. Get them to make a note on it on your account, then call GM.
The number to call is 1-800-222-1020. Ask to be transferred to a call center in the USA.

I can affirm that GM has a team reading all our posts.

To make a very long story short, I bought a 2006 G6-GTP 6 speed. Tranny was the worst ever. I posted so many post on G6performance.com that after 6 months I was going to Lemon Law Court (Canadian Version) and the day before going to court GM agreed to swap my 6 speed to automatic brand new G6 - GTP. I did'nt loose the first 6 month of my contract, they just swapped the car....The day after I posted the results on the site and at 9:01 AM I received a call from GM asking me to retrack that post and they almost ordered me to post that they changed the car because I was a very, very long time customer. They did'nt want other owners to know my story's result. I had to sign a confidential agreement to get the deal on.

Where i'm getting is that I personnaly know that they have people gathering informations on this site and all problems are reported to a certain office. So the Gills problem is a know situation to GM. That does'nt mean that they will cover the repairs, absolutely not....

But as far has i'm concerned, i installed EOM Spalh Guards (200,00$ installed) AND NO MORE CHIPPING AT THE GILLS LEVEL.

As for the front end, well it's a front end. Just look at some 2005 - 2009 Mustangs hoods and you'LL SEE A LOT OF PAINT CHIPS THERE.

[CALI_FIREFIGHTER]

I also have a 2010 rs camaro that had paint peeling issues on the front and rear fascias at the corners. GM paid for them to be repainted at a cost of $900 covered under there warranty. It was explained that it was due to the oils in the plastic that were used to release the molds from the plastic. Did not cover the clear bra that I had to have installed over again though. I went through GM customer service and another love chevrolet in Columbia after having a hard time from the dealer I purchased it from. Build #8635 so it was an early model.

[CALI_FIREFIGHTER]

Sorry, point is there is a paint adhesion issue on the front and rear fascia's due to the releasing agent that is used in the mold process.

[Sunlover]

this chipping issue is really maddening, but the ultimate villian here is the the government, the EPA specifically, madating this frigging water-based paint. THAT'S why it's chipping when our older cars don't...Throw out those idiots and get the good paint back!