BMW M3 vs. Camaro SS?

[Zeus]

To measure the worth of a car only by its performance numbers alone, when it is not a track dedicated car, is to miss the point completely.


M series car's are not what they are because of their performance, they are what they are because they combine good performance with a gentleman's package. Luxury, comfort, technology and performance all in one package. The fact that M series cars tend to outperform their competition doesn't mean this is the only form of criteria by which they should be compared.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by Mosher

So what you are telling me, is a Same driver comparo, on the same day, at the same track, isn't conclusive because they didn't go find a certain driver for each car to extract every last ounce of performance? Returnofcc that's just dumb. If we wanted to find out who the best DRIVER is then that would be acceptable, However since they reviewed the CAR putting the same RACE CAR DRIVER in each and see how fast he can hammer around under the same conditions is about the best you can get.

So what you are saying is, the STIG for example, shouldn't be trusted because he can't extract the performance out of the cars like those guys could.

The engineers of these cars, and the drivers who the engineers hire, know how to drive them best. That's all I have to say

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

Apparently you have no sense of time. The e60 M5 was introduced in 2005. At the time, it was the best saloon on the market. The CTS-V, which underwent years of development and testing against the e60 M5 just to outperform it, was introduced in 2008. I don't see how BMW fails if they haven't gotten a chance to test and create a model against the current CTS-V yet. The next M5 will be the first one, and I can guarantee that it will outperform the CTS-V.

Again I hope it does outperform it, giving its $25K price difference. Obviously that was just GM trying to give their consumers the best bang for their buck, and it obviously worked.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by Zeus

To measure the worth of a car only by its performance numbers alone, when it is not a track dedicated car, is to miss the point completely.


M series car's are not what they are because of their performance, they are what they are because they combine good performance with a gentleman's package. Luxury, comfort, technology and performance all in one package. The fact that M series cars tend to outperform their competition doesn't mean this is the only form of criteria by which they should be compared.

This is what I have been trying to get at this entire time, but Username over these is bickering on and on

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Zeus

To measure the worth of a car only by its performance numbers alone, when it is not a track dedicated car, is to miss the point completely.


M series car's are not what they are because of their performance, they are what they are because they combine good performance with a gentleman's package. Luxury, comfort, technology and performance all in one package. The fact that M series cars tend to outperform their competition doesn't mean this is the only form of criteria by which they should be compared.

Which is why CTS-V is it's main competition. It gives all the luxuries, options, and quality that the M3 offers, with the better performance value.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Which is why CTS-V is it's main competition. It gives all the luxuries, options, and quality that the M3 offers, with the better performance value.

I would agree. Both performance oriented luxury cars.


I'm not siding with either argument, just pointing out something which should be clarified.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

This is what I have been trying to get at this entire time, but Username over these is bickering on and on

I believe I've made that same point Zeus has made before.

Originally Posted by a_Username

And we just pointed out other vehicles that GM has in it's fleet for the same price, that offer the same quality and options, that outperform it.

Originally Posted by a_Username

You need to realize that GM made the Camaro a performance oriented vehicle for the average person. It was not intended to be a high-end luxury vehicle, even though it includes many things you'd want to see, at least, in mid $30K vehicles such as leather, heated seats, etc. They focused on performance and design, instead of the number of options available.

Originally Posted by a_Username

Obviously you don't pay for a complete performance package when buying the M3. Saying that, the price tag doesn't fully reflect performance. It also includes luxury items, and "better" materials. This type of car's main competition would be a CTS-V, in which it obviously loses to it performance wise, with having every bit of the quality and luxuries the M3 offers.

[Mosher]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

The engineers of these cars, and the drivers who the engineers hire, know how to drive them best. That's all I have to say

Then you lack the ability to allow said vehicles to be compared in a Sterile performance Test if the outcome does not suite you.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by a_Username

I believe I've made that same point Zeus has made before.

And so have I

Originally Posted by returnofcc

Yes, the corvette and cts-v can beat the M3 around Nurburgring. So, what's your point? In the Corvette's case, the Corvette is a car solely dedicated to going fast, nothing else. I would hope the epitome of American performance engineering could beat the M3, considering it's sole mission is not just to go fast.

Originally Posted by returnofcc

I do realize that. But for all those people on this forum going, "OMG LOLZORS 70K FOR AN M3!!!!! NO WAY, CAMARO IS SO MUCH CHEAPER AND BETTER!!!!!!!" I'm trying to explain where the price difference comes from.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

Ok, let's make another comparison.
Nurburgring lap times:
Nissan GT-R: 7:26.70
Corvette ZR-1: 7:26.40

Prices: I realize the GT-R uses more advanced technology than a pushrod engine with a blower. It also uses awd, has more seats, has better interior, has aluminum body panels...Wait, what are the prices?
Nissan GT-R: $80,000
Corvette ZR-1: $110,000
Difference: $30,000
So, for 30k, you get a whole.... .3 seconds around a track...Or $100,000 a second....yup...sounds worth it to me. Besides, 2008 was Nissan's first attempt. In the coming years, the GT-R Spec V will be further refined to beat the Corvette...

Heh...you really do get bent out of shape when someone challenges "German engineering"...odd.

I said what I did because, like I said...I don't care. I know what car I like better, and I have valid reasons to like it better -- that doesn't make me right, nor does it make you wrong. Just don't get bitter because I don't share your views...then you make yourself look bad. :(

And for the record -- Nissan cheated -- nobody, not even Porche (the stewards of the 'Ring) can duplicate their times. Sure you want to quote dirty numbers?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

And so have I

So that's what you're trying to explain to me? A point I've already made?

Either way you look at it, the CTS-V is in the same market segment as the M3, price and car type wise. The CTS-V outperforms the M3 either way you look at it.

[jordanc]

now put the extra $30,000 you saved buing the Camaro into it now what do you think hands down Camaro rules over BMW M3

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Heh...you really do get bent out of shape when someone challenges "German engineering"...odd.

I said what I did because, like I said...I don't care. I know what car I like better, and I have valid reasons to like it better -- that doesn't make me right, nor does it make you wrong. Just don't get bitter because I don't share your views...then you make yourself look bad. :(

And for the record -- Nissan cheated -- nobody, not even Porche (the stewards of the 'Ring) can duplicate their times. Sure you want to quote dirty numbers?

Can you give me a link to that article where Porsche accused them of cheating? I remember seeing it on one of the auto sites... I also like how he conveniently ignored my post about the ZR1 against the GT-R.

[Mosher]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Heh...you really do get bent out of shape when someone challenges "German engineering"...odd.

I said what I did because, like I said...I don't care. I know what car I like better, and I have valid reasons to like it better -- that doesn't make me right, nor does it make you wrong. Just don't get bitter because I don't share your views...then you make yourself look bad. :(

And for the record -- Nissan cheated -- nobody, not even Porche (the stewards of the 'Ring) can duplicate their times. Sure you want to quote dirty numbers?

No no no! See the GT-R time counts because it was fair and driven by Nissan Engineers! The other lap times on different courses that where not Nissan funded, THOSE are the invalid tests!!!!