Detroit Free-press -- a MUST READ

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

The Senate members who voted Nay are not EVIL...they have their reasons.

They are self-serving hypocrytes with no concern for anybody outside of their own constituants. When they put that ahead of the country as a whole; imo, they're borderline evil.

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

They feel that 15 Billion without some sort of financial plan would be throwing away money and delaying the inevitable...Chapter 11. They want those CEO's who screwed up fired...they want the GM workers who are making so much money to make what they should be making...considerably less. It's hard to beat the competition when you have CEO's who made these bad decisions leadign us here and workers draining away more money than the competition.

They delayed the first vote so they could get a plan in their hands. They got it, and promptly refused to acknowledge anything in it. 2 of the three CEOs are new as of last year, how could they have screwed anything up? And Wagoner is the best CEO GM's ever seen. More positive changes to the company and their products have been made under him than ever before in recent history. And the worker pay issue is blown out of proportion, if not outright misrepresented.

They want GM recleansed. Management fired, union contracts tore up, and a complete recleansing. It's a Republican thing. I don't know which is the right answer, but they aren't evil...right now 50% of the country says Nay. All we ca hope for is that it all works out in the end.

Too many of them refuse to listen to reason or take an unpopular stance on issues. They're all proposing feel-good resolutions that do nothing but make it look like they're actually making a difference. They're politicians, and can't be trusted to make the right decisions if there's a 'ME' factor they can exploit instead. Mitch Albom's got this head-on.

[Rodrunner]

I've seen a total employee figure of 300,000 for GM. If the total compensation(salary, medical, retirement) difference between GM and foreign makers equated to just $20 per hour, that amounts to $1.04 trillion (not billion) per month and $12.48 trillion per year. Rant all you want about the government, Mr. Abolm, which I largely agree with, but don't minimize the union's liability. If anyone has their hands around the poor blue-collared workers' throats it's them.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by 1camaro70

I am going to be unpopular but, how can GM build cars for $72 per hour and the foreign manufacturers building in the USA at $48 per hour?.

Go check your facts -- they don't make that kind of money -- the hourly rate PAID to our workers is on par with the Foreign ( ....that's foreign as in 'tumor' or 'cancer' -- sorry -- I'm not real happy right now...) makes -- the difference is health care and retirements. See- -we have, as I recall, 3.5 retirees for each worker - and frankly it's gotta be more now that we've had so many more retirements.....and less workers. The Foreign transplants have less than 500 retirees...................THAT'S where it gets expensive.

One other thing: go look at other markets - they are not open - they are either protected by tarriffs or closed in other ways............

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

The Senate members who voted Nay are not EVIL...they have their reasons.

They feel that 15 Billion without some sort of financial plan would be throwing away money and delaying the inevitable...Chapter 11. They want those CEO's who screwed up fired...they want the GM workers who are making so much money to make what they should be making...considerably less. It's hard to beat the competition when you have CEO's who made these bad decisions leadign us here and workers draining away more money than the competition.

They want GM recleansed. Management fired, union contracts tore up, and a complete recleansing. It's a Republican thing. I don't know which is the right answer, but they aren't evil...right now 50% of the country says Nay. All we ca hope for is that it all works out in the end.

Wow.

Just 'Wow'

Did you even read the article I posted at the top of this thread?

Who has screwed up more than Congress or the Senate????

[OldTimer]

If we really want to make an impact, this kind of article needs to be mass emailed by all of us who wants to speak out.

[1camaro70]

What I am commenting on is the average GM employee actually makes $29 / hr and Toyota $31/ hr but cost to manufacturer with all the benefits is $72 verses $48. that is 1/3 MORE. How can GM, Ford and Chrysler stay in business, they do not make money giving rebates on all their cars, from the $0 profit they are making with benefit packages like that.

[OldTimer]

I can't believe anyone would side with the senate on principle alone. We bail out wall street? We are bailing out crooks who lined their own pockets. They weren't doing anything for their employees. Now we want to cut off the head of companies that spent billions in research and development, created jobs for thousands of people and then looked to take care of them after there service and loyalty to their employer ended. I might just have to side with Obama's wife here and say I am embarrased to be an American right now.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 1camaro70

What I am commenting on is the average GM employee actually makes $29 / hr and Toyota $31/ hr but cost to manufacturer with all the benefits is $72 verses $48. that is 1/3 MORE. How can GM, Ford and Chrysler stay in business, they do not make money giving rebates on all their cars, from the $0 profit they are making with benefit packages like that.

Yes, and that's an entirely misrepresented number. It includes all the healthcare and retiree costs in a per current worker language. As per GM; the total cost per hour per hire is now $25-35, compared to the $45-50 per hour rate that foriegn plants supposedly pay...I'd say that's competitive!! The only difference is what Scott mentioned above: the healthcare and retirement costs. Luckily, the healthcare burden will be lifted in 2010...

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by OldTimer

I might just have to side with Obama's wife here and say I am embarrased to be an American right now.

That is starting to sound like something i would read in the old political forums.

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

That is starting to sound like something i would read in the old political forums.

I am still proud to be an American. But I am ashamed that my fellow American's in the US Senate have their heads so far up their ass that they won't know what they have done until their ass catches on fire. I hope they all burn.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by Brokinarrow

I hope they all burn.

What about the senators that approve of the loan? If this was allowed a floor vote it would have passed with at least 52 to 55 yes votes.

[playhard67]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The only difference is what Scott mentioned above: the healthcare and retirement costs. Luckily, the healthcare burden will be lifted in 2010...

Why can't the UAW lift the burden in 2009? I know it has to be funded, but meet halfway (if it is possible)!

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

What about the senators that approve of the loan? If this was allowed a floor vote it would have passed with at least 52 to 55 yes votes.

Yes, the burning is directed towards the senators that voted against having a healthy economy. And whatever idiot tried to throw in a pay raise for federal judges on that bill.

[bobscogin]

Originally Posted by playhard67

Why can't the UAW lift the burden in 2009? I know it has to be funded, but meet halfway (if it is possible)!

Further, how come Ron Gettlefinger hasn't volunteered to work for a $1 salary next year as the carmaker's CEOs have. The UAW has had such a free ride for so long they don't know the meaning of compromise.

Bob